"El Cerrotero de los Minas Oro Apacho" is the title of one of the most well known maps associated with the lost dutchman legend.
Many of the books we have all read include this map which, legends says originated directly from the Sonoran Peralta family.
I have a simple question concerning the title of this map.
What does the word "cerrotero" mean?
All of the translations within published books equate this word to either "hills, mountians or small hills" yet no one I know can connect this translation to this word. Is this word "old" hispanic?
Also the syntax of this phrase seems questionable.
El Cerrotero de los Minas Oro Apacho
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Joe Ribaudo
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Cerrotero
Knun,
Hard to look into the mind of the person who wrote that title. We could assume that they were uneducated.
It would really be a guess by anyone but the author.
My guess would be (loosely translated) : The earth sealed gold mine of the Apache. That is not what it says, but that is the only guess I could come up with.
It's a really good question. I hope someone can come up with something a little more accurate, but that does seem like a long shot considering the wording
used.
Respectfully,
Joe
Hard to look into the mind of the person who wrote that title. We could assume that they were uneducated.
It would really be a guess by anyone but the author.
My guess would be (loosely translated) : The earth sealed gold mine of the Apache. That is not what it says, but that is the only guess I could come up with.
It's a really good question. I hope someone can come up with something a little more accurate, but that does seem like a long shot considering the wording
used.Respectfully,
Joe
I don't speak Spanish, but according to Babel Fish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr), "cerro" means hill, and "de los minas oro" means "of the mines gold". "Apacho" may mean Apache, or be a reference to the area ("Apacheria"). I read once that Apache means "enemy" in some language (Pima?). "Cerrotero" is strange. But, we can come up with "the hill of the gold mine of..." the Apaches? The enemy? In Apacheria? I don't know where Joe came up with "sealed", but maybe that too.
Joe,
The uneducated idea is possible but....the many people I know who have trouble writing generally mis-spell or try to spell phonetically. You just have to look at some of the posts on this board for examples. Some of which are my own!
But this word cerrotero is just not a word. Unless cerro is sierra......but then what is tero? The only "tero" I'm familiar with refers to occupations such as carpentero or carpenter.
Wiz,
Apacho is another word that's puzzling....Why not apache? But it is apacho???
Where is Azmula when you need him.....
The uneducated idea is possible but....the many people I know who have trouble writing generally mis-spell or try to spell phonetically. You just have to look at some of the posts on this board for examples. Some of which are my own!
But this word cerrotero is just not a word. Unless cerro is sierra......but then what is tero? The only "tero" I'm familiar with refers to occupations such as carpentero or carpenter.
Wiz,
Apacho is another word that's puzzling....Why not apache? But it is apacho???
Where is Azmula when you need him.....
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Joe Ribaudo
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Cerrado
Wiz and Knun,
My guess was not a blind one.
Cerrado means closed, clenched or sealed in Spanish, as in: Un sobre cerrado.
While "tero" is not a spanish word, and does not fit if you use Latin, it is close enough to "tierra" which at least makes sense.
I suppose you could say they were trying to say, hill of dirt or earth, but that also seems a little strange.
As for the name, "Apache". Apachu is a Zuni Indian word, which as Wiz has mentioned, means enemy. It is the word the Zuni used for the Navajo who come from the same "Athabascan" related line. Most "authorities" on the subject follow that belief. Some believe the name came from the Yavapai Indian word for people, which is Apatieh or Apadje. The first mention of the Apache in Spanish documents was in the late 16th century. The words used to describe them were: Apides or Apiches.
This early tracing of the Apache history is less than an exact science, and full of "grey" areas. It is, however, interesting. Anyone who decides to pursue that research, needs to be ready to expend a lot of time in the local library, or a lot of money on books. I have had to follow the later course, as I have seldom had access to a library with acceptable Indian research material. Besides, they won't let me keep the books.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
My guess was not a blind one.
Cerrado means closed, clenched or sealed in Spanish, as in: Un sobre cerrado.
While "tero" is not a spanish word, and does not fit if you use Latin, it is close enough to "tierra" which at least makes sense.
I suppose you could say they were trying to say, hill of dirt or earth, but that also seems a little strange.
As for the name, "Apache". Apachu is a Zuni Indian word, which as Wiz has mentioned, means enemy. It is the word the Zuni used for the Navajo who come from the same "Athabascan" related line. Most "authorities" on the subject follow that belief. Some believe the name came from the Yavapai Indian word for people, which is Apatieh or Apadje. The first mention of the Apache in Spanish documents was in the late 16th century. The words used to describe them were: Apides or Apiches.
This early tracing of the Apache history is less than an exact science, and full of "grey" areas. It is, however, interesting. Anyone who decides to pursue that research, needs to be ready to expend a lot of time in the local library, or a lot of money on books. I have had to follow the later course, as I have seldom had access to a library with acceptable Indian research material. Besides, they won't let me keep the books.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Fish Map
The map in question is also known as the "Peralta-Fish Map" or just the "Fish Map." Thomas Glover has a write-up on it on page 325 of his first book. Thomas' stab at the phrase "El Cerrotero de los minas oro apacho" is: the mountains or hills of the Apache gold mines. Seems as good as any translation....
I also have to chime in on the comment made about spelling phonetically. I think it happened often back then. Being able to read and write did not imply a "college degree" or the ability to spell perfectly. Even today spelling, in a day and age of "spell checkers," is still a problem. I get lots of emails at work with misspelled words - and from college grads to boot. In the case of a map over a hundred years old - in a time when the level of education was not what it is today - it is no surprise there could be misspelled words - or even "made up" words.
I also have to chime in on the comment made about spelling phonetically. I think it happened often back then. Being able to read and write did not imply a "college degree" or the ability to spell perfectly. Even today spelling, in a day and age of "spell checkers," is still a problem. I get lots of emails at work with misspelled words - and from college grads to boot. In the case of a map over a hundred years old - in a time when the level of education was not what it is today - it is no surprise there could be misspelled words - or even "made up" words.
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Joe Ribaudo
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A Few Small Changes
S.C.,
There are a few small changes that have been made to the "Fish Map".
Since I am certain it has been changed over the years, I wonder if there weren't some major changes to begin with.
Despite the title of the "Fish Map" it seems fairly certain that the map does not lead to any mines. If there were some things added or taken away, perhaps the title is one of the things that was added. If the map does not lead one to any mines, what does it lead to?
As for Peralta gold mines, I am still trying to figure out why they didn't just keep them from the start. Can't see any reason for them to give them up.
I like your idea of the "made up words" or even, perhaps, a mix of Spanish and Apache. Any likelyhood, Peter? If not Apache, maybe another language from Mexico, other than Spanish. That would be interesting. There were a number of languages at work in Spain's New World. If anyone is thinking Jesuits, or some other form of Padre, I have already looked into Latin.
Respectfully,
Joe
There are a few small changes that have been made to the "Fish Map".
Since I am certain it has been changed over the years, I wonder if there weren't some major changes to begin with.
Despite the title of the "Fish Map" it seems fairly certain that the map does not lead to any mines. If there were some things added or taken away, perhaps the title is one of the things that was added. If the map does not lead one to any mines, what does it lead to?
As for Peralta gold mines, I am still trying to figure out why they didn't just keep them from the start. Can't see any reason for them to give them up.
I like your idea of the "made up words" or even, perhaps, a mix of Spanish and Apache. Any likelyhood, Peter? If not Apache, maybe another language from Mexico, other than Spanish. That would be interesting. There were a number of languages at work in Spain's New World. If anyone is thinking Jesuits, or some other form of Padre, I have already looked into Latin.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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No
For those who think Peter is breaking into song, 
he is really saying no. Strange coincidence, while "dah" in Russian means yes, "dah" in Western Apache, means no. Doo dah, is actually "negative" which would be an elaborate "no". Only a modern-day Apache would have said "doo dah". 
There is no chance that there is any Western Apache influence in the "Fish Map" title.
Thanks for putting a on my face, Peter. "Camp Town Racetrack" will do (dah) it every time.
Respectfully,
Joe
he is really saying no. Strange coincidence, while "dah" in Russian means yes, "dah" in Western Apache, means no. Doo dah, is actually "negative" which would be an elaborate "no". Only a modern-day Apache would have said "doo dah". There is no chance that there is any Western Apache influence in the "Fish Map" title.
Thanks for putting a
on my face, Peter. "Camp Town Racetrack" will do (dah) it every time. Respectfully,
Joe
maps
SC; You little booger you, You stole my translation. I was going to give the same one you did, you robbed me. We have to remember that back then if a man had 3 years of schooling he was condidered an educated man... Many could not write their own name.. NOW why could this not be a map to something? Hell I don,t know of one thing anyone else has found with any of the map,s SO FAR.. Bill
The problem with virtually every map to the LDM is that they will not tell you where to put a pick in the ground. I believe that a very few of them do indeed show the mine area (at least my own interpretation of where I believe the mine should be located), but then what??? Good luck trying to find "X" marks the spot in that terrain.
P
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Map to the LDM?
Peter,
A lot of people assume that any map of the Superstitions is related to the LDM. If you use the Fish Map, logically, you will come to the conclusion that it does not lead to the LDM. Once you reach that point, you will believe it is a fake. You seem convinced it is a fake. Did you come to that conclusion logically (by following the map) or have you dismissed it for some other reason? If you did follow the map at some time, where did it take you?
Just fishing here, as I don't actually have a clue.
I may have made a statement (or two) here that is less than truthful.
Respectfully,
Joe
A lot of people assume that any map of the Superstitions is related to the LDM. If you use the Fish Map, logically, you will come to the conclusion that it does not lead to the LDM. Once you reach that point, you will believe it is a fake. You seem convinced it is a fake. Did you come to that conclusion logically (by following the map) or have you dismissed it for some other reason? If you did follow the map at some time, where did it take you?
Just fishing here, as I don't actually have a clue.
I may have made a statement (or two) here that is less than truthful.
Respectfully,
Joe
BillMaps
It amazes me to think that people have taken “maps” so seriously that people have been killed for them.
The sad fact is that just about any map can only – at best – take one to a particular side of a mountain or a general area. Not an exact spot. That is one of the reasons I, myself, do not put too much credence into them. I agree with the comment made about some maps being more appealing than others. I, too, feel certain ones might have a half-truth in them and others I think are not so good.
But, if someone does that – favoring certain ones - is that being “selective?” That a certain map is only accepted if it shows something to be where one already thought something to be? I am sure some people might look at it that way – perhaps not consciously – but maybe unconsciously.
However, to me the deciding factor is the history (as best as one can know) of a map and its context within a given situation. Where did it come from? Who had it? How was it initially presented? In what context? Was it presented to foot the bill for an expedition? To gain favor with someone? The answers to questions like these – at least to me – are the important issues. Not necessarily what the map shows. If the level of suspicion is low, then I suppose I “favor” a map in my mind. However, I never think such an item is going to lead me (or anyone else) to anything specific.
An example of what I consider to be a suspicious map is the Walker-Weedin Map. I cannot take it very seriously as it was drawn from memory. That alone, to me, makes it suspect. However, for what it is worth, no map is without some form of suspicion. It is a matter of degree. And personal belief.
But, no matter what, a map – by itself – is virtually meaningless. Even if it was genuine. All one can do is indicate a general area. And with something like the LDM, that is not much.
The sad fact is that just about any map can only – at best – take one to a particular side of a mountain or a general area. Not an exact spot. That is one of the reasons I, myself, do not put too much credence into them. I agree with the comment made about some maps being more appealing than others. I, too, feel certain ones might have a half-truth in them and others I think are not so good.
But, if someone does that – favoring certain ones - is that being “selective?” That a certain map is only accepted if it shows something to be where one already thought something to be? I am sure some people might look at it that way – perhaps not consciously – but maybe unconsciously.
However, to me the deciding factor is the history (as best as one can know) of a map and its context within a given situation. Where did it come from? Who had it? How was it initially presented? In what context? Was it presented to foot the bill for an expedition? To gain favor with someone? The answers to questions like these – at least to me – are the important issues. Not necessarily what the map shows. If the level of suspicion is low, then I suppose I “favor” a map in my mind. However, I never think such an item is going to lead me (or anyone else) to anything specific.
An example of what I consider to be a suspicious map is the Walker-Weedin Map. I cannot take it very seriously as it was drawn from memory. That alone, to me, makes it suspect. However, for what it is worth, no map is without some form of suspicion. It is a matter of degree. And personal belief.
But, no matter what, a map – by itself – is virtually meaningless. Even if it was genuine. All one can do is indicate a general area. And with something like the LDM, that is not much.
maps
Carumba SC! The most any map is going to do is take you to the scene or mountain. I wonder if some of the maps may show a different approch to the area too... In the case of the paralta,s which one of the mines does it take you to; There are several paralta mines??? Besides the LDM..Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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On The Spot
S.C.,
It is a rare day when I disagree with you. This is one of those days.
Many of the LDM maps will take you to a specific spot on the ground. That is not a guess on my part, but a fact. That does not mean that the map is going to take you to a treasure, mine or cache, but to a specific place or thing. The Stone Maps will take you to the exact location of each of the symbols that are on them. Knowing where to go from the final location is another matter. The same can be said for a number of the maps that have been mentioned here, including the "fish" map.
None of that means that the maps are legit. It only means that the author knew what he was doing when he created the map. I know a great many of the really old trails in the mountains. I could draw a map that would cause a great deal of excitement if someone were to follow it.
I have no doubt that a number of other members could do the same thing.
Maps suddenly take on a little weight when they follow the faintest, sometimes invisible, of trails past (obviously) old monuments, to interesting sites.
Respectfully,
Joe
It is a rare day when I disagree with you. This is one of those days.
Many of the LDM maps will take you to a specific spot on the ground. That is not a guess on my part, but a fact. That does not mean that the map is going to take you to a treasure, mine or cache, but to a specific place or thing. The Stone Maps will take you to the exact location of each of the symbols that are on them. Knowing where to go from the final location is another matter. The same can be said for a number of the maps that have been mentioned here, including the "fish" map.
None of that means that the maps are legit. It only means that the author knew what he was doing when he created the map. I know a great many of the really old trails in the mountains. I could draw a map that would cause a great deal of excitement if someone were to follow it.
I have no doubt that a number of other members could do the same thing.
Maps suddenly take on a little weight when they follow the faintest, sometimes invisible, of trails past (obviously) old monuments, to interesting sites.
Respectfully,
Joe
Fish map pedigree
The "Peralta-Fish" map seems to have one of the more traceable histories associated with it than most of the other maps. Basically it's Fish, Schaefer, Reser, then SMHS.
The only muddled portion of it's history is, alas, the most important. Where did Frank Fish obtain the map? One of the best sources for this information would seem to be Lake Erie Schaefer since she was involved directly with Frank and the map. She was a member of the "Legends of Adventure" who used this map to search the mountains in the sixties. A group which included Frank Peralta, a direct descendant of the Peraltas of the massacre.
Schaefer stated in her book Dead Men Do Tell Tales that Fish obtained the map somewhere around 1915 through information from an aquantance. That person was none other than Erwin Ruth.
One problem....Fish was 15 years old at the time. I won't go into more on this as Dr. Glover went over this in his book The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz and I am paraphrasing from that work.
All accounts agree that Frank obtained his map directly from the Peralta family.
The only muddled portion of it's history is, alas, the most important. Where did Frank Fish obtain the map? One of the best sources for this information would seem to be Lake Erie Schaefer since she was involved directly with Frank and the map. She was a member of the "Legends of Adventure" who used this map to search the mountains in the sixties. A group which included Frank Peralta, a direct descendant of the Peraltas of the massacre.
Schaefer stated in her book Dead Men Do Tell Tales that Fish obtained the map somewhere around 1915 through information from an aquantance. That person was none other than Erwin Ruth.
One problem....Fish was 15 years old at the time. I won't go into more on this as Dr. Glover went over this in his book The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz and I am paraphrasing from that work.
All accounts agree that Frank obtained his map directly from the Peralta family.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Where Did It Come From?
Rochha,
Are you assuming that the "Fish" map did not originate from the Peraltas?
Knun,
I don't recall Schaefer citing a date of "around 1915". Do you know what year Dr. Ruth left Mexico?
Did anyone ever come back with a good reason for the Peraltas to walk away from their mines in the Superstitions? Does everyone agree with the popular opinion on this question?
Respectfully,
Joe
Are you assuming that the "Fish" map did not originate from the Peraltas?
Knun,
I don't recall Schaefer citing a date of "around 1915". Do you know what year Dr. Ruth left Mexico?
Did anyone ever come back with a good reason for the Peraltas to walk away from their mines in the Superstitions? Does everyone agree with the popular opinion on this question?
Respectfully,
Joe
Areas
Joe,
Interpretations of maps are a personal matter. To me, I have yet to see a map detailed enough that could direct someone to more than a general area. Though, a "general area" could be interpreted to be an area of 100 yards by 100 yards. But it is still a general area when it comes to the Superstitions and one is perhaps dealing with a mine (or cache) that is covered up.
As I say, that is "to me"... That is only my opinion. Others such as yourself may interpret a particular map to indicate more than that. If that is what you conclude, that is your prerogative. And, I wish you the best on your efforts.
S.C.
Interpretations of maps are a personal matter. To me, I have yet to see a map detailed enough that could direct someone to more than a general area. Though, a "general area" could be interpreted to be an area of 100 yards by 100 yards. But it is still a general area when it comes to the Superstitions and one is perhaps dealing with a mine (or cache) that is covered up.
As I say, that is "to me"... That is only my opinion. Others such as yourself may interpret a particular map to indicate more than that. If that is what you conclude, that is your prerogative. And, I wish you the best on your efforts.
S.C.
Maps
SC,
When a spanish map is involved it will lead you exactly where you need to go, not just in the area. The Spanish were precise in the maps, they would have to be. To be able to bring someone to a spot ( sealed up entrance ) that has never been there before it would have to be exact. There would be no trace of an opening or anything, thus it would be very precise.
Rochha
When a spanish map is involved it will lead you exactly where you need to go, not just in the area. The Spanish were precise in the maps, they would have to be. To be able to bring someone to a spot ( sealed up entrance ) that has never been there before it would have to be exact. There would be no trace of an opening or anything, thus it would be very precise.
Rochha
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Joe Ribaudo
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Interpretation
S.C.,
I can see where "interpretations" of maps would be "personal" to anyone who is doing the interpretation.
I feel a little "pride of ownership" in my own map. Uncle Chuck followed the "Fish" map, to a spot on the ground. While it was confiremed by the marking of a Spanish muleshoe drawn into the rock, and a huge reading on a metal detector, he found nothing. Erie Schaefer and her group, were led to specific spots on Black Top Mesa by Frank's map. They found nothing.
Did they misinterpret the map? Perhaps. It is also possible that the map led them to the exact spot on the ground that was intended, and they needed information that was not on the map, to arrive at the final location, proceeding from that "spot on the ground". The map is accurate.
If you follow a map to an X, or some other symbol which denotes a mine or a treasure, it will only get you to "an area". If you follow it to, say, a "rampant horse head with one ear laid back" it has taken you to a specific point on the ground. If it takes you to a cactus with four stones embedded in it, you have arrived at another specific point on the ground. You may follow a map to one hundred "specific points on the ground" and walk past the one "point" that contains the mine, treasure or even another map. If you are focused on the end of the map, as I have been for over thirty years, you may not see "the forest for the trees". What better place to hide a tree, than in a forest. What better place to hide a mine or treasure, than on an elaborate map with an obscure note or symbol in the content. Only the creator of the map, or those he has informed, would know.
Because of the terrain in the Superstitions, it seems like an excellent way to hide something, in plain site. This would work just as well for "stories" of lost mines in the Superstitions, as it would for maps of the Superstitions.
Have we all walked past a treasure on the trail of a story? It's, of course, possible.
Respectfully,
Joe
I can see where "interpretations" of maps would be "personal" to anyone who is doing the interpretation.
I feel a little "pride of ownership" in my own map.
Uncle Chuck followed the "Fish" map, to a spot on the ground. While it was confiremed by the marking of a Spanish muleshoe drawn into the rock, and a huge reading on a metal detector, he found nothing. Erie Schaefer and her group, were led to specific spots on Black Top Mesa by Frank's map. They found nothing. Did they misinterpret the map? Perhaps. It is also possible that the map led them to the exact spot on the ground that was intended, and they needed information that was not on the map, to arrive at the final location, proceeding from that "spot on the ground". The map is accurate.
If you follow a map to an X, or some other symbol which denotes a mine or a treasure, it will only get you to "an area". If you follow it to, say, a "rampant horse head with one ear laid back" it has taken you to a specific point on the ground. If it takes you to a cactus with four stones embedded in it, you have arrived at another specific point on the ground. You may follow a map to one hundred "specific points on the ground" and walk past the one "point" that contains the mine, treasure or even another map. If you are focused on the end of the map, as I have been for over thirty years, you may not see "the forest for the trees". What better place to hide a tree, than in a forest. What better place to hide a mine or treasure, than on an elaborate map with an obscure note or symbol in the content. Only the creator of the map, or those he has informed, would know.
Because of the terrain in the Superstitions, it seems like an excellent way to hide something, in plain site. This would work just as well for "stories" of lost mines in the Superstitions, as it would for maps of the Superstitions.
Have we all walked past a treasure on the trail of a story? It's, of course, possible.
Respectfully,
Joe