Deerings Trail

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

"The folks doing the original mining werent digging any pits 75 feet across..or 7 feet across for that matter.
LDM and Deering hunters are most likely looking for covered over holes in the ground no more than 4 feet across...".

Seems fairly obvious, but as the years pass, anything becomes possible.
That four feet will soon be accepted as 150'. Did someone already mention that 150'?

Take care,

Joe

[Sam Brannan]

zentull

I know a little about mining. It's quite common to find a vein that's considerably richer near the surface than it is at depth. Something to do with weathering and chemical erosion. Sounds like the pit/prospects you found were dug to verify that the vein they were going after didn't pinch out or become low grade once you get away from the cap.

An adit (one sided tunnel) is the easiest way to work a mine, since you don't have to haul the material uphill. The old-timers always worked their mines through an adit if it was at all possible. Shafts were used as a last resort.

Sounds like the veins were worth working or why would they have gone to the trouble of digging an adit. Unless they were dug as a part of some old scam. Did you take any samples? If I was to go back in there, I'd haul a metal detector with me and swing it all around the vicinity and see what it turns up.

Sam Brannan

[zentull]

There have been several mines that have had a trick in the trail ( hole in rock) and several with pits located above tunnels. Waltz has been reported as saying he covered the pit(s) and walled up the tunnel. If his statements are correct he would have checked on the status just prior to Deerings rediscovering the mine. Deering reports the tunnel wall has sunk and so has the area around the pits. He also finds ore around the tunnel entrance that is rich and just lying there. Would Waltz have just missed this? Seems unlikely. The wall sinking 8 inches seems possible, but the partially filled pits is more intriguing. Either Waltz covered the pits or he didn't. Partially filling 2 75 foot deep pits seems like a lot of work for nothing. I have heard that most of the Apache mines that have been excavated had a caliche seal. Could Deering have been at one of the Apache covered locations? Perhaps some monstrous monsoon activity could have caused this, but the most recent severe activity I am aware of is 1891. Seems there is a narrow timeline for the major changes that happened at the site between Waltz and Deering. Could Bark have confused the 2 sites by believing they were one and the same? Could this be the reason that Chuning began searching elsewhere? He may have located Deerings mine which was played out, but was onto the Dutchman by that time and saw the possible relationship between the 2 separate mines? This could explain the distance between some of Chunings more impressive work in the mountains.

[TGH]

There is a school of thought that states that Waltz'z mine did NOT have a tunnel below it. However, information from Bark and Herman Petrasch (Petrasch, in fact stated that there was a well-worn animal trail leading up to the tunnel entrance..this trail still exists in a few places today)states there was indeed a tunnel below the mine..a tunnel that Waltz covered over by dumping down dirt from above. I havent run into any information that states that Waltz worked two pits. He may have worked some placer diggings in a steep brushy canyon below the mine, but not two pits across from each other. I also do not believe the two pits were 75' deep. It is much more likely that these pits were located 75' ACROSS FROM ONE ANOTHER. And that is where the 75' clue comes from. Sorry but it drives me nuts seeing folks say these things were 75' in circumfrence , 75' wide or 75' deep. I doubt they were more than 4' wide and 20-30 feet deep...if that.... tops.

So is the Deering/Waltz mine one and the same? I am not sure, but I now tend to doubt it. Same vicinity, but different locations. One was high up the other not as high up.

Chunning certainly knew the landmarks and terrain where the Deering mine was located. Question is...why didnt he find it in the 90s when he had the best chance? Or was there a wild card in the deck that kept the mines hidden even at that time? quien sabe......

[zentull]

Barks notes address the tunnel more directly early on. It is at this site the killing of the 2 mexicans happens. If the Mexicans are killed at the pits, it would mean that the pits lie below the tunnel area and the approach descends to the operations or that the approach over sees both areas and is higher than either.This is generally contradictory to what most believe. The implication here would be they were mining the tunnel or perhaps breaking down ore after being at the pit(s). Waltz walls up the tunnel before covering it we are told. Waltz is less descriptive of the tunnel and the implication seems to be that one of the pits is the source of his gold. The tunnel is an apparent marker that would draw you to the pit area possibly. While Waltz knew of the pit areas, why did Deering look for the pits after finding the tunnel and ore? Deering appears to find the wall uncovered or at least easily visible.Same thing happens with the 2 soldiers. The 75 feet is a big pain since taken literally could mean the area is the size of a football field. I know I mentioned this sometime ago in a post. Of course the bigger something is the easier it can be to hide if you dont understand the parameters of what you are looking for. I don't believe an operation of that size could have remained this elusive though. Waltz would still be there covering his tracks. The 2 soldiers and Deering both locate the pits with ease. Of course the Holmes version seems to have one pit, no tunnel mentioned, but fits your parameters better. But is that verbatim from Waltz or logic dictating that tale? The 2 soldiers have an area as the same description as Deerings mine. Again everything is apparent and visible.

[dutchman49]

I WROTE IN MY POST A WHILE BACK ABOUT THE TWO PITS AND THE AREA AROUND THEM.TO BE CLEAR THEY ARE NOT PITS OR HOLES IN THE GROUND ,BUT TWO LEDGES THAT CANNOT BE VIEWED BY EACH OTHER BECAUSE A FORMATION ON THE SIDE OF THE MOUNTAIN BLOCKS THEM. WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING WAS THAT THE DISTANCE APART USING MY GPS WAS 78 FEET. THE LEDGES ARE NOT THAT LARGE IN SURFACE AREA ( 8X20 FEET) BUT IT IS HARD TO GAUGE BECAUSE THESE LEDGES ARE ABOUT 20 TO 30 FEET FROM THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN. ONE OF THE LEDGES HAS ACCESS BY WAY OF A SMALL RAVINE. THE 75 FT CLUE AT LEAST FOR THIS AREA MEANS THAT THE PITS (IF THEY ARE HERE) ARE 75 FEET APART AND BECAUSE THE LEDGE IS SMALL IT COULD HAVE AT A SLIGHT INCLINE A COVERED PIT 3 TO 4 FEET IN DIA. IN CORBINS BOOK THE CURSE OF THE DUTCHMAN GOLDS PAGE 50, CORBINS WRITES THAT JULIA TOLD SIMS THAT WALTZ WENT TOWARD THE MINE THEY HOBBLED THE HORSES AND THEN ON FOOT WENT TO THE MINE BY CLIMBING A RIDGE AND WHEN THEY GOT NEAR THE TOP OF THE RIDGE THEY HEARD NOISES "SOMEBODY WAS BREAKING ROCK OVER ON THE OTHER SIDE. QUIETLY WE CREPT TO THE TOP AND LOOKED DOWN. THERE WERE TWO
MEN DOWN THERE ,AND THEY WERE HAMMERING ROCK." IT IS CLEAR THAT WALTZ SHOT THE MEN FROM ABOVE AND THAT THE MEN WERE AT
THE PIT (MINE) OR PITS. IF THERE IS A TUNNEL IT IS DOWN BELOW ABOUT 300 FEET BECAUSE THE LEDGES I AM USING FOR INTERPRETATIONS OF THE ABOVE CLUES ARE JUST THAT 300 FEET STRAGHT DOWN. IF YOU FOLLOW THE TRAIL FROM THE NORTH THE SIDES OF THE MOUNTAIN ARE TO STEEP TO CLIMB UP , BUT IF YOU TAKE ANOTHER ROUTE FROM THE SOUTH AND YOU CLIMB A LONGER RIDGE THEN A SMALL SADDLE THEN ANOTHER RIDGE TO TO THE TOP AND THEN LOOK DOWN YOU SEE THE LEDGES AND THE CANYON FLOOR (YES IT RUNS NORTH AND SOUTH) 300 FEET BELOW . BEING IN THIS AREA AND READING WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THE FOURM AND ALL OTHER DUTCHMAN BOOKS MAKES THIS A VERY POSSIBLE SITE. THERE ARE MORE CLUES THAT ARE IN THIS AREA ,JUST LOOK AT MY PAST POST IF YOU ARE INTERESTED RICARDO ORDONEZ AKA DUTCHMAN49
S.

[TGH]

>>The 75 feet is a big pain since taken literally could mean the area is the size of a football field. <<

Only the size of ONE football field? I wish. More like 20 almost VERTICAL football fields.

[zentull]

Barks notes make it clear that the two mexican incident did not happen at the immediate pit area.

".....and crawled up to within sight of the tunnel, and there were two naked men ( All but a gee string )whom they thought were Indians "

" Above the tunnel, and further over there, it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled "

"..and came to a tunnel that had been walled up, with workings above and over"

My opinion is that the tunnel area while more easily accessible is not a great distance from the pit(s) area. You are working backwards, so good luck.

Let me add that this coming week we will be seeing the 110s and that this is the worst time possible to even think of venturing in for another look. If you do decide you cannot wait, as others before you, think of the stories and how patience would of been worth more than gold. If you choose to ignore such advice, please tell someone you trust when you are departing and when you will leave the area. You should ask them to notify the authorities if you run even a day or hours late from the predetermined schedule. This puts the burden on you to keep to the schedule. Leave good general directions of the approximate vincinity and your route(s). There have been occasions I welcomed defeat and swallowed my pride and ignored the stupid voices in my head. There are times I didn't. I have a good friend who suffered a severe case of heat stroke one summer while in the vincinity of Black Top Mesa. I felt fine and he had been taking in plenty of liquids. Theres nothing like a close friend in convulsions and vomiting to let you know how dangerous things can get quickly. It took several days before he was even able to walk. There were no warning signs. He just started talking gibberish and became weak . He did not remember the next 48 hours at all. Take it to heart and I hope it scares you straight. Scared the hell out of me.

[bill711]

Say it loud and clear ZEN. NO one but a STUPID, NUT, OF AN IDIOT would go into the SUP,S in the HOT WEATHER ! I sure wouldn,t want them for pardners too careless. They will gamble and then leave their bones on some trail for others to find some day.While I sit here . bill

[djui5]

I WROTE IN MY POST A WHILE BACK ABOUT THE TWO PITS AND THE AREA AROUND THEM.TO BE CLEAR THEY ARE NOT PITS OR HOLES IN THE GROUND ,BUT TWO LEDGES THAT CANNOT BE VIEWED BY EACH OTHER BECAUSE A FORMATION ON THE SIDE OF THE MOUNTAIN BLOCKS THEM. WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING WAS THAT THE DISTANCE APART USING MY GPS WAS 78 FEET. THE LEDGES ARE NOT THAT LARGE IN SURFACE AREA ( 8X20 FEET) BUT IT IS HARD TO GAUGE BECAUSE THESE LEDGES ARE ABOUT 20 TO 30 FEET FROM THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN. ONE OF THE LEDGES HAS ACCESS BY WAY OF A SMALL RAVINE. THE 75 FT CLUE AT LEAST FOR THIS AREA MEANS THAT THE PITS (IF THEY ARE HERE) ARE 75 FEET APART AND BECAUSE THE LEDGE IS SMALL IT COULD HAVE AT A SLIGHT INCLINE A COVERED PIT 3 TO 4 FEET IN DIA. IN CORBINS BOOK THE CURSE OF THE DUTCHMAN GOLDS PAGE 50, CORBINS WRITES THAT JULIA TOLD SIMS THAT WALTZ WENT TOWARD THE MINE THEY HOBBLED THE HORSES AND THEN ON FOOT WENT TO THE MINE BY CLIMBING A RIDGE AND WHEN THEY GOT NEAR THE TOP OF THE RIDGE THEY HEARD NOISES "SOMEBODY WAS BREAKING ROCK OVER ON THE OTHER SIDE. QUIETLY WE CREPT TO THE TOP AND LOOKED DOWN. THERE WERE TWO
MEN DOWN THERE ,AND THEY WERE HAMMERING ROCK." IT IS CLEAR THAT WALTZ SHOT THE MEN FROM ABOVE AND THAT THE MEN WERE AT
THE PIT (MINE) OR PITS. IF THERE IS A TUNNEL IT IS DOWN BELOW ABOUT 300 FEET BECAUSE THE LEDGES I AM USING FOR INTERPRETATIONS OF THE ABOVE CLUES ARE JUST THAT 300 FEET STRAGHT DOWN. IF YOU FOLLOW THE TRAIL FROM THE NORTH THE SIDES OF THE MOUNTAIN ARE TO STEEP TO CLIMB UP , BUT IF YOU TAKE ANOTHER ROUTE FROM THE SOUTH AND YOU CLIMB A LONGER RIDGE THEN A SMALL SADDLE THEN ANOTHER RIDGE TO TO THE TOP AND THEN LOOK DOWN YOU SEE THE LEDGES AND THE CANYON FLOOR (YES IT RUNS NORTH AND SOUTH) 300 FEET BELOW . BEING IN THIS AREA AND READING WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN ON THE FOURM AND ALL OTHER DUTCHMAN BOOKS MAKES THIS A VERY POSSIBLE SITE. THERE ARE MORE CLUES THAT ARE IN THIS AREA ,JUST LOOK AT MY PAST POST IF YOU ARE INTERESTED RICARDO ORDONEZ AKA DUTCHMAN49
S.

Whoa!!

[TGH]

A couple of years back I hiked in from First Water to just above Charlyboy and back (in the same day) in 110 degree heat. Did it to see what it was like. Ran out of water around 3pm on my return trip as I was climbing up Bull Pass. Made it back to the lot somehow. It was an interesting experience, but not one I wish to repeat. Taught me the valuable lesson of caching water throughout the range. So every time I go in now, I take 2-3 full 2 liter bottles of water with me and drop em off at different places. Never know when they will come in handy.

[walker12]

[quote="bill711"]Say it loud and clear ZEN. NO one but a STUPID, NUT, OF AN IDIOT would go into the SUP,S in the HOT WEATHER ! I sure wouldn,t want them for pardners too careless. They will gamble and then leave their bones on some trail for others to find some day.While I sit here 8) . bill 8)[/quote]

When I lived in the area, for years I hiked the Superstitions at least 2 times per month EVERY month of the year. Many times I hiked during the summer 5 or 6 times per month. I admire you for knowing your limits and not getting in over your head. However, you should think twice about calling other people names just because they don't have your limits (or capabilities for that matter).

[bill711]

Well; I wondered just how long it would take for the die hards and the superdupermen to weigh-in with their feats of wisdom ! I,m glad you smarted up enough to use some insurance Pete. Walker I knew there were some macho men around who would weigh-in . I spent my youth walking some pretty damn good mountains and NO_ONE could out walk me in the mountains! BUT I was not going to risk my behind doing it; I was that smart. I did risk my rear several times but it was not the smartest thing that I ever done! I,m glad you are in such superduper shape Walker that the mountains do not take any tole on you. BUT the other 99.99 percent are the ones that I am talking about Walker. BUT my words stand as said. YOU can keep on showing how tough and hardened to the riggers you are Walker and I,m sure someone will be kicking your bones around wondering who the darn fool was who came out here without... bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I thought your comments were a bit too all inclusive as well.

I know and have known a number of Dutch Hunters who hike the Superstitions in the heat of summer. It is not the wisest thing to do, but some people are quite capable of doing it.

Anyone who has ever suffered from heat stroke, like me, should never attempt that kind of hike. Repeat episodes are the norm for heat stroke victims.

It is really a matter of testing and knowing your limitations. It would be a very bad thing to hit Parker Pass in July, and suddenly realize you have bit off more than you can chew.

Because of my past history with heat stroke, I have had to lay down and rest on more than a few occasions. Once that happens, I am good to go for any number of days in the Supes.

Not long ago, I found myself close enough to where we were going to camp to hear my cousin and brother in law talking. I took off my pack and got on the radio to tell them I was going to spend the night where I was. They came and helped me into camp. I could only take a few steps before having to rest again. The next morning we climbed over 2000' in elevation and spent the entire day in rough terrain. I never missed a beat. Same thing every day for a week, without any problems.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

I learned more about heat stroke and heat exhaustion from the incident above than I thought possible. Most importantly I learned that no one is immune and there are internal chemical reactions that give almost no notice. My buddy was one of the last people I ever expected to have any such problem with. My lesson learned was how many times did I not know how lucky I was ? Theres a lot to be said about carrying a grown man through needle canyon. Superman would have found it easy. I did not. The picture of Weavers needle in the members archive is from the return trip. Picture my buddy sitting off to the side speaking in tongues, a five foot rattler laying in the path in front of me and a great view of the needle before me. The snake did not survive.

I refuse to blow my own horn just because I have survived. My own stupidity is contrived and designed. I hiked from first water to the quarter circle with a quart of water and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in July once. Stupid yes, but how many times had I made this trip and how well did I know the area before then ? 25 years ago I was proud of such games , now I see it as a stupid move on my part.

[bill711]

My dear dear Joe; Aparently you have not learned much in life ! YOU and the Ironman who subdo,s "polar bear,s with a switch", are on here broadcasting to a lot of newbie,s about what you think can be done. They will be some of them who will take the chance and maybe get in hard staits because of it too. I would think you would spend your time discouraging this sort of talk. We who are experenced know what can come from taking risk and chances! Maybe I could hike 50 mile on a sip of water in the sup,s but I would not recomend it for anyone else to try! Because Bill or Joe or the Ironman can do something doen,t mean that 98% of ther other hikers can do it? I used the hard names for anyone who is careless enough to try hike it on a small canteen of water thru the sup,s.. Anyone who regulerly takes these chances sure don,t think much of themselves. I think of the old men who used to drive across the train tracks uptown and when they got relaxed enough to just drive home for lunch and didn,t look for the train that ran over them, it,s the same thing here. When you go out in the wilds you should know that everything is AGAINST you, if anything happens it will 99.99& be bad. I was really only sounding a warning BUT I still stand by my words. While we do not have your dry heat here we have a very humid heat that will get you just as fast if not faster. Joe maybe you and the Ironman have ran 5 miles thru the sup,s to build up an early morning apitite BUT I Strongly urge anyone else not to try it! Peter I thank you for showing good judgement in your note, YOU used good sense. YOU recomended that no one else try taking chance,s and how you used backup insurance.. bill Joe how many people have you recued because of carlessness? how many bodies?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

This is your statement:

"Say it loud and clear ZEN. NO one but a STUPID, NUT, OF AN IDIOT would go into the SUP,S in the HOT WEATHER !"

"NO one" is the part that makes your statement problematic. Both Zen and I have told our "sad" stories and given warnings.

You see, Bill, your post was addressed, pretty much, to "STUPID, NUT, OF AN IDIOT". Anyone with that kind of moniker would not pay any attention to ANYTHING we might say.

I always made my trips into the mountains in mid-March. Most anyone who reads this Forum knows that. You can get heat stroke, even then, such as the the story I related in my last post.

To be clear, there are folks who can and have trekked the Superstitions in the dead of summer and never came close to a problem. They are "Desert Rats". Don't go calling them "STUPID". For everyone else, it's a deadly game.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

YES JOE ; pick out the exceptions to the rule! WE all know that there is always that one "exceptions" We all know that there are some trekers who can come and go as they want BUT to come on this forum talking like there is nothing to it or it was a minor errer on someones part is a gross injustice to some of the members. It,s also very dangerous too. You need to quit trying to pick a fight with me and reveiw your stance on this issue Joe. I think your concious should be bothering you on this matter. bill Joe you are pinching the words tooooo tight.

[zentull]

Back to the subject at hand........

So is there justification in believing Bark mixed things together a bit and was it on purpose ? It seems Chunings search and Bark/Elys search are patterned differently. I do not believe Jim Bark was an idiot, therefore since the notes were not meant for publishing directly at the time, why is everything put in a neat little basket ?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zen,

While Bark and Chuning may have searched in different ways, I believe they both knew, about, where the LDM was located. The question that comes to mind is: Did they agree as to which area?

I think I know the answer to that question, but will not present the evidence at this time......Sorry. I have not located a treasure in the Superstitions yet, so most of you should discard that statement as of no value.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I appreciate your critique of my posts, but they are just fine the way I wrote them. I took your advise and reviewed my posts. At the same time I reviewed Zen's posts on the subject.

You owe Zen an apology. You need to go back and reread the warnings in all of those posts. Only a "STUPID, NUT, OF AN IDIOT"
could fail to see the warnings in every one of our posts.

I have never set foot in the Superstitions in the summer. (WARNING)!
I have had heat stroke in mid-March. (WARNING)!

Zen admits he was lucky to survive. (WARNING)!
He states that "No one is imune" from heat stroke. (WARNING)!
He admits to "stupidity" (WARNING)! for going in the summer. (WARNING)!
Some, I repeat, some folks have no problem. Others are brought out "toes up". (WARNING)! If you THINK you are one of those folks, you should make sure and get a pedicure before you go in. Want your toes looking good when they tie that tag to them. (WARNING)!

On the other hand, if you KNOW you can handle the desert mountains in mid-July, like Walker 12, enjoy the hike. He has QUALIFIED (WARNING)! his experience. (WARNING)!

Man's got to know his limitations, especially when hiking through hell, (WARNING)! or critiquing another man's words. (WARNING)!

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[bill711]

Ok Joe; As usual Your brilliance is dazzeling. Now I am satisfied with the warning ! Now I am ready to go back to the real deering trail. period.. I think Bark was afraid of his notes maybe being stolen and wrote them " not quit true" off a little maybe as to the final area location? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Thank you! "dazzeling brilliance" is what I am best at.

Thinking that "Bark was afraid of his notes maybe being stolen" has as much substance as his being afraid that his notes would NOT be stolen.
Both should be considered, but in the end, it seems logical that you should assume his notes are truthful. If you assume otherwise, why read them at all?

Overall, there is no reason to disbelieve the Bark Notes. There is also no value in believing he lied. Everyone needs a place to start his or her search. Jim Bark's notes seems like as good a place as any to me.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

There are several things that have not been clear to me and possibly never will. Why did Chuning wait until the Silver King job played out before chasing in Deerings footsteps? While he may have caught the fever as time wore on, he sounds like a guy who could have worked his way to success regardless. The story is a good one, but what causes Chuning to drag his heels for an extended time? There is a lapse there that bothers me. Jim Bark is ranching in the Superstition area around 1883. Joe Deering dies in 1885. In 1886 the Silver King has a big year. Chuning shows up at Barks ranch according to the notes in the late 1880s, possibly after 1888 when the Silver King production fell. Bark purchases the Superstition ranch in 1891 the year Waltz dies. In fact he mentions the incident of meeting Julia and Company just after the purchase. Gottfried works around the ranch along the same obvious timeline as Chuning is still in a somewhat active partnership with Bark. It is mentioned that Bark was aware of Waltz at least in the time previous to 1891. While it was Julia who promoted the mine to its legendary status early on to anyone who would listen, we still have it that Waltzs mine was a gossip of sort prior. Bark questions Rheiney around 1892. Bark does not seem physically involved for the search for the mine at this point. He does get physically invloved in a different operation with Chuning. It is during the partnership with Ely that he changes his approach . The Deering mine while attached to LDM lore seems joined with the 2 soldiers but separated from the wheat and chaff so to speak from Waltz somehow. Barks notes while important are derived from Barks knowledge. Two different things. What was it about the LDM that the Deering mine lacked ?

[bill711]

Joe; I don,t think Bark ever wrote his notes for public. I don,t think he wrote his notes for Joe blow and his bedazzaling brilliance? AFTER sitting here and reading about bark,s directions and his place of HUNTING being in 2 different places. I thought he may be telling the truth about what happened in his investigation of things BUT maybe changed the place of his hunt to confused anyone else? Maybe? Remember the hunting was real keen AFTER the Jake died and the news of Gold got around. I don,t think Bark and the Chunning knew they were after the Jake,s mine until after the Jake,s death and they heard all about his mine or ledge? Here,s the line up so far: Wiezer was killed working the mine? Jake left the mine with gold laying around it=Phipp,s says he took gold from the mine and saw Jake coming and left with a baking powder tin of gold=then the Jake covered over the mine because he saw where someone was messing around and walled the tunnel up and covered the mine=next was the 2 soldiers who say gold was laying around the mine with a walled up tunel=next was deering who found a little gold,= then the unhealthy dude who found gold=then Jake told Helen and the rhinny that when he went back he saw where someone was messing around the mine so he cleaned up around it and covered over the mine. If Bark,s notes do not line up with his search then someone had to change them? Bark or who? bill