The Waltz Drawing

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
As I have stated previously, I do not have the research material you and the others have worked so hard to get. Keeping that in mind, I tend to lean toward the writers and Dutch Hunters who were closest in time to the events. Since I have never seen an official document with the Chewning or Chunning name on it, I have stuck with the writer closest to his time. Since I want to continue our dialog , I will use whichever spelling keeps you calm, relaxed and receptive.
Ely had many faults, distance from the events he wrote about was not one of them. I don't quote him that often, but I will try not to make him an authority in the future.
Although I have a little trouble with spelling, I have absolutely no trouble reading. What I said was, "Spelling and dates were less important then the facts of the story." In this case your misquoting the facts of what I said are very relevant. By the way, you left out Sims misspelling of Chunning, in your critique of his work. Seems like that should have been point # 1 in our conversation. I make it a habit to overlook mistakes in spelling and dates in the forum because it is not really productive. Since you misspell "misspelled" and "misspell", I will assume you will not hold yourself to the same high standards you apply to Ely.
John Chunning was a miner. He would have been looking for tailings. Finding those, he would then look for the tunnel and pit. At this time, we should be looking for something else as well. It is well known, published and completely overlooked. I will make an educated guess and say you are using this historical item in your own search and overlooking the most important part. You are in a long line of Dutch Hunters who had the same information and overlooked the same clue. Let's hope your results, somehow, turn out different. Many have followed Chunnings tracks over the years and found....... If you are in the same area as Chunning searched you may find some rotting rope ladders and a nice view of the Needle, but in my opinion, you will not find the LDM. I stand by my statement concerning Chunning and Dearing or Deering. A drawing that no one has seen, except for a select few, can not be examined by the huddled masses out here, and tested for authenticity, or lack of the same. If this drawing can not stand the harsh light of scrutiny, it deserves no further consideration.
God-awful rough place in the Superstitions? Surely you jest.
I have given a lot of unqualified opinion in this reply and some qualified, so I could of course be wrong.
Joe

[Wiz]

Peter and Joe,
The tone of your dialog seems to be getting a mite testy. Why don't you both relax and enjoy the conversation? You both have valid points to make, and sniping at each other isn't going to do any good.

Just a suggestion.

[Peter]

OK Wiz

Time for a time out....at least I got him to spell Chunning correctly....lol

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,
Peter and I are kindred spirits. We have the same personalities, tastes in reading material, interest in history and sense of biting humor. You will have as much luck getting the Arabs and Jews to live together as toning down our dialog. I feel like he is my long lost brother. What you say about us sniping at each other is completly true. The inference that we are not enjoying our dialog is incorrect. It's true, however, that our side bars detract from the serious questions and answers in the topics. We both need to focus our efforts on the subjects at hand. Much as I enjoy our repartee, I will stick to the topics in the future. We have gone far afield in our replies.
I am aware of the Deering drawing but have never seen it. I know what it depicts and the area of it's view. Like all other drawings, monuments and various other maps and clues, it has never led to anything resembling a mine, cache or treasure. My own take on that, is that if they are legitimate, Dutch Hunters have misread them. They may be starting from an incorrect premise, direction, trail or landmark. If you are walking in the same footsteps as previous searchers you could end up with the same results. Looking at the Deering, or Waltz, drawing from a different perspective might give you a new, fresh and successful place to search. That approach has led me into a relatively new area. Once I arrived there, many of the most popular and accepted stories, maps, legends and clues came together in the same place. The Fish map is a case in point. My uncle and his partners, all very astute people, took this map and ended up on Black Top Mesa. The authors of that map wanted that obvious conclusion to be drawn. Their empty prospect holes are still there. When Chuck left Black Top Mesa, he believed that Black Mountain could have been the correct reading of that and other maps. After many years of searching that area he only found confusion. Even though some things fit perfectly, others just could not be found where they were shown. As you follow the Deering or Waltz drawing, or any other map,do not let the missing clues be discounted as unimportant. You may be following that drawing or map from, or in, the wrong place.
Joe

[Peter]

<< I feel like he is my long lost brother >>

Thanks Joe, but I already have enough nuts in my family.......

Something you touch on in your comments on the Fish Map holds true for all other maps, clues and directions to the LDM. Many many people in the past based their entire search on a single clue or a small handfull of clues. Some would go running into the mountains after reading a simple magazine article or a new interpretation of the Perfil Mapa.

In order to understand the probable location of the LDM, one must take into account the totality of all available clues, their sources and the HISTORY of the area and all that implies. Once a searcher does that they
might get to a general area...then I wish them luck as they finally will understand the enormity of the task at hand.....

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
My uncle and his partners do not fall into the go running into the mountains catagory. Chuck spent thirty years, and countless trips into the Supes working on his theories. He was no nut, although, I might qualify for such a label.
As I have worked my way into my own area of interest, I have found the size of the task to be shrinking rather then increasing. Perhaps you have found just the opposite in your area. I know that is just what happened to Chuck. When you reverse the process, you know you are getting closer.
Joe

[S.C.]

There has been much discussion here about drawings and clues and who is questionable and who is not so questionable. But the underlying topic was always the Waltz drawing. Much has been said about its value and what it might do and how it might be used. However, way back when... the question was asked "where did it come from?" I would like to return to that issue and see what people might have to say.

LDM wrote the following in a previous post:

"...From the little I know about the drawing, I tend to believe it is authentic. Rhinehart Petrasch is said to have copied a drawing Waltz sketched to try and show Rhiney and Julia what the landscape looked like on the way to the mine and as you got close. Waltz was probably attempting to put things into some sort of perspective using a landmark he knew would be hard for even the softest of tenderfeet not to notice. The problem with the drawing is that it doesn't specify at what point you are at when you are looking at the drawing's sketch. Are you just starting out, somewhere along the trail or getting close to the mine ?..."

LDM also wrote in the same post:

"...I think the drawing(s) were sketched as a last ditch effort, drawn in the last day's when it became apparant to everyone that Waltz would not be able to make the journey, too little, too late. Rhinehart indicated there were other sketches but they were either lost or stolen or discarded. ..."

Now, I will accept that Waltz drew sketches. That Rhiney copied some - if not all - of them. And, he also probably lost some. I will also accept the sketch called the Waltz Drawing could be one that survived - or a memory drawn copy of one - perhaps even by Rhiney himself. However, considering all that, there is still a gap from Rhiney to the sketch appearing in Ms. Corbin's book. How did she get it? Where did it come from? Has it appeared anywhere else before her book? Did it come from Bark? Spangler? Hermann Petrasch? It makes one wonder....

Regardless of its value in finding the mine, I am still interested in how that sketch - if genuine - got from Rhiney to Ms. Corbin. Does anyone have any information regarding this? I am sure it has a very interested history. And, I am sure many would like to know the details.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
Thanks for asking this question once more. I think we have heard from the members who would know this answer, and they do not appear to know the factual source. As I have stated before, I have my own reasons for believing the drawing is legitimate and have not kept them a secret.
It's kind of interesting how the Dutchman's Saddle came to my attention. As I said, I was flying the Supes and took many pictures.After I left, I stopped at a bookstore and found Corbin's book. When I got home and had the pictures developed I set them aside and checked out the book. When I finally got to the Waltz drawing, it looked familiar. I thumbed thru the prints and there it was. I had asked the pilot to take me to another area for a picture of a saddle I was interested in. He took me to the wrong place and I took a picture of a totaly different saddle. Lucky accident! It is the Dutchman's Saddle. Only question: was it drawn by Waltz? Many maps, stories and clues lead me to believe that it was.
Joe

[señor x]

As I re-read the thread in this posting, I find it interesting that we are all looking at the same drawing but interpret the view as being from different directions. SC commented that it looked like a view from the NW of Weavers Needle. Joe said that the view from Iron Mtn would look similar to the drawing, so that would be looking toward the Needle from the east. And Peter mentions the view from the Deering trail, I don't know where he thinks that is, so I don't know the direction.

Personally, as I look at the drawing it looks to me like the view from the Northwest , maybe west of the Parker Pass area. Looking at a photo taken from the East-Southeast (Miners Needle area), it looks like the mirror-image of the Needle in the Waltz sketch. Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

[S.C.]

You know... I cannot remember what I posted before. But, looking at the drawing, it appears to be from the west - and a little north. But not too far north. If I said NW. I meant more west than north.

[Peter]

I agree with the NW interpretation. Maybe Waltz was simply trying to
get Rhiney to First Water? (Of course First Water back then was probably not todays modern First Water).

Isnt it great racking ones brain over this stuff?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Waltz was drawing his view from memory. He was sick, to death. The shape of Weavers Needle might not have any bearing on the location of the saddle. Other information from various clues, maps and stories might be required to find the exact location of the saddle. You are all really working overtime on this question. In my opinion, it is worth your midnight oil.
Joe

[LDM]

Deleted.

[Joe Ribaudo]

LDM,
I won't narrow the location of the saddle down any further. Waltz may have had something in mind when he drew the lines below it. Your guess is as good as mine, perhaps better. If the drawing stood alone, it would be useless to us all. It does not give any indication of a mine or cache location. If I have figured out the rest of the stories, clues and maps correctly, the saddle will appear before me. Uncle Jacob and all of the other major players will show their presence. All of the major Dutch Hunters will be conspicuous by there, -almost-, total absence. I am not wrong about the location of the Dutchman's Saddle. It's correlation to the main stories, maps and other clues, is obvious-to me, as well as others who have the information. Due to a number of connected reasons, the correctness of the anatomical view of the Needle is not critical. To narrow down the place this drawing fits, is and will be hard. Without the rest of the pieces in place, you will be searching for the proverbial NEEDLE in a haystack. If the mine is on Black Mountain, the drawing will fit, even if the view of the Needle is not the same as on the drawing. You might conclude the same thing concerning the Deering view.
It may seem to the forum that I have made a lot of assumptions here and there are a few, but overall, I do not believe I am wrong.
Keep in mind my advancing age and loss of memory when reading and replying to this post. Thanks for your input.
Joe

[Heidi]

Joe,
are you saying that the saddle could be anywhere in the mountains? Does your saddle match the drawing exactly? Does anyone else place any faith in this drawing? Do you find it in your own search areas? I have never seen such a view.
H

[Peter]

Hiedi

I think it would be difficult to match up the view in the drawing as the Needle (as discussed in the previous) doesnt match up too well.

That is unless

1) The drawing was reversed.... or
2) The drawing does not represent Weavers Needle, but another needle in the range.

[Heidi]

Peter,
Thank you for your answer. It seems like this site was a lot more active when I first looked in on it. Some of the other folks seem to put some faith in that drawing. You don't? Have you or any of the others seen a needle and saddle that looks like this one, but is not Weavers Needle? I noticed that sometimes a question gets ignored. Is this one you would rather not answer? I like the idea of looking for a needle viewed thru a saddle as that should be easier to find and would give me a place to start.
It is hard to know where to start and what I should be looking for. there are so many stories, mines, treasures, caves etc. Are you looking for a mine?
H

[Peter]

Heidi

I think someone pointed out that this particular drawing was handed down by the Petrasch's, and as such, both Rhiney and Herman werent above changing some things around to disguise the true intent of the drawing. Did they do this in this particular case? Who can say...but I would not be surprised.

Questions get ignored (I beleive) because some folks either have nothing to say on the subject matter or have too much to say and therefore remain silent. This particular item is of some interest to me, but to my mind simply reinforces what I already know.

Am I looking for a mine? Good question. I am convinced the LDM is out there somewhere..along with several others. Finding a covered over shaft in that terrain will not be the easiest chore in the world...as many have found in the past. Also remember that mother nature has been at work for 100+ years, adding to the dilemma.

Research before you search. The problem with the Dutchman is (as Tom Glover put it in his book) not the shortage of clues...but the wealth of information we have. The hard part is seperating the wheat from the chaff.

[Heidi]

Peter,
I thought someone said that the drawing was found in their possessions after their deaths, not handed down. If they were the only ones viewing the drawing, why would they change it? I have researched as well as I can from here. San Diego State is a great place to research Mexican, Spanish and Southwestern culture and history. It does leave a lot to be desired on the Lost Dutchman Mine subject. Reading the forum has been a large part of my research, along with every book I could get my hands on. We have made six trips into the Superstition Mountains in the last four years and find ourselves drawn back to it's beauty. We have left the main trails as Mr. Ribaudo suggested in one of his posts, and it was an eye-opening
experience. We are both experienced backpackers and use topographic maps along with GPS.
Have you seen a needle thru a saddle view like this drawing, that was not Weavers Needle? If the name of the needle would give to much away, a simple yes or no would be enough.
Thank you for your time.
H

[Peter]

H

The answer is no, I have not seen a needle that looks exactly that the one in a drawing anywhere in the mountains.

However, I belong to the camp that thinks the needle in that drawing is indeed Weavers Needle..but the drawing needs to be reversed. Then the
needle looks similar to the drawing from a fairly large part of the range. Good luck finding the right saddle! I have not.


P

[Heidi]

Peter,
Mr. Ribaudo says he has taken a picture of that view. If he did that, it seems funny that no one else has seen it, unless Weavers Needle is not the peak in the drawing.
H

[Peter]

Mr Ribaudo says lots of interesting things.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Thank you Peter,
Most Dutch Hunters will probably dismiss the Waltz drawing as a fake, or reason that it must be turned around. We all have a tendency to find a way to make the clues fit our particular area of interest, or if that's not possible, discredit the clue all together. Why did the Petrasch's feel the need to change a drawing, that only they had access to. We all have the drawing and are unable to find the mine, no matter how we view it. Most can't even find the correct saddle view. If it's a valid Waltz drawing, what chance is there to find the mine without the view? My guess would be zero.
Joe Ribaudo

[Aurum]

xx

[Peter]

Aurum and co.

And this of course begs the question...was Waltz trying to show Rhiney a view of Weavers Needle from the area of the mine..OR was he trying to show (as has been rumored) a series of landmarks on the WAY to the mine. At this late date who can be certain .....?