Peralta Priest Stone Map, Solved!

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:14 pm

Zentull,
I am looking forward to the next rendezvous. Where are we meeting this year?

laz

zentull · Post by **zentull** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:44 pm

October 26th, 27th and 28th at the Dons base camp. Greg will be opening the gate early friday morning and I am hoping to meet him there or be waiting.

Bring your own food, water and toilet paper. We will be gathering at the large ramada and fire pit each evening as a group. We will be putting the finishing touches on things next month to gear up for what I think will be a great time.

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:54 pm

Zentull,
I'll be there.

laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:14 pm

One more thing,
apparently I should have spelled ‘Flaxseed’ with an ‘x’, but since I can’t change it now, please overlook my spelling.

laz

TJHunter · Post by **TJHunter** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:36 pm

Down for the count but not out yet.

Laz, where's the beef?

Good old Randy he's one to have with you when your lost in the supes.
I can't believe he's still hiking in this weather! I went hiking just last weekend and had to high tail it back before the storms hit!

I know the heat and I can take it here or there.

I might show up at this years Rendezvous for a few hours and BS a while. It's a long, long drive to where you guys are.
You'll know me I'll be wearing a ten gallon hat.
You know, big brain and all...........

I might even bring in part of the Stone Maps Treasure for you guys to simmer about. It's multi-colored and resembles a large pot. It looks like you sit on it and take pictures of the body of the moisture prism.

Can't wait to crash..ar..ah.."Attend" your Rendezvous.

I'll be the one on the Harley Davidson called "The Horse of Santa Fe".

Don't worry, the only colors Ill be flying is "Rainbow".

Some where over the Toliet......

Any special drinks you boys gonna be serving?

I know old Joe is serving his "Crow Stew" served cold with a bit of back peddling.

Can't wait to show you guys what I've discovered. Won't be any thing you can use though.

Best,

TJ

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:04 pm

TJ

It's hard to "crash' a party you've been invited to attend. You're more than welcome to hang with the gang.

laz

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:09 pm

TJ

"I'll be the one on the Harley Davidson called "The Horse of Santa Fe".

Right on, Dude...

I'll be the one riding on a horse called Bobby.

Laz

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:03 pm

zentull wrote:I am good to go if it invloves a dirty, dark, nasty hole. Of course I send Randy first to clear the way......

I'm about due for a new dark nasty hole

TJHunter · Post by **TJHunter** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:42 pm

Did I say Crash?

I meant Cash the party.

Johnny Cash.

Just joking about all that Laz,

As for a dark nasty hole someone dropped their watch down the outhouse last year and they are offering a hefty reward for it's return!
I know some not so nice woman that resemble that description.

Best,

TJ

TJHunter · Post by **TJHunter** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:52 pm

When was I invited?

I figured I wasn't welcome at your closed to the general public event.

Not that I could make it there anyway.

I figured them Critters would be crawling out at night and stealing my food so I had planned to stay away.

TJ

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:28 pm

TJ,

"When was I invited?

I figured I wasn't welcome at your closed to the general public event."

I took a copy of Zentull's post which was accidently deleted by the management. Here it is:

The dates for the 2007 Redezvous are confirmed for October 26-28 at the Dons camp in the Superstition Mountains.

"It is not necessary to contact anyone if you are attending. Everyone is welcome and the site offers ample room for everyone. There is no electricity or water at the camp. The road to the area is improved dirt and well maintained.

We will be coordinating on who this years guests may be and will confirm them beforehand. The only change overall will be that everyone will be welcomed to a campfire each evening at the main ramada after supper. There we can all share and give our guests a chance to speak with us all.

As soon as other plans are confirmed we will announce them in this thread.

A huge thank you again to Greg Davis and the Dons club for getting things started and making this event possible

We will get a site map and directions posted for everyone. Please contact me if you have any other questions."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I took the liberty of placing the portion of his post that addressed your comments in bold. Nothing seems to cause more confusion......than the Rendezvous. Hopefully this will make it clear to everyone, but I have serious doubts.

Joe Ribaudo

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 4:42 pm

TJ,
what are you talking about?
You were all gung ho about showing up when you thought you weren't invited. Now you aren't coming? I hope you change your mind.

Don't worry about critter. He probably won't be able to make it, which is in fact, a shame, as he has much to contribute.

Laz

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:54 pm

I would just like to add that this will be a FAMILY oriented event, so please act appropriately if you plan to attend.

On that note, all are welcome

critter · Post by **critter** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:46 pm

Late October I'll be on the Sogdian Rock. Enjoy the outing and behave yourselves!

TJ, I'd rather concentrate on the bits we can agree on, which is essentially that the establishment does not readily accept the work of "amateur treasure hunters" as a relevant archaeological provenance. This is a shame and in my own opinion has resulted in the loss of some of our important historical heritage. The little steatite figurine that Laz found a few years back is a prime example. It is obviously man made and it wasn't put there by elves, but the orthodoxed viewpoint would discredit the specimen out of hand. And without an archaeological provenance we could dance around in circles about it's meaning untill the ends of time. My point is that there must be some way to circumvent the Powers That Be to bring these finds to light in a way consistent with the preservation of our history. I'm open to your thoughts.

Cheers!

critter

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:19 pm

The problem is if you bring them to light, they will be destroyed or stolen. It's the real "curse" of the Superstitions.

critter · Post by **critter** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:11 pm

Isn't preventing such an occurance the point of "preservation". If not brought to light, then they are equally susceptible to being destroyed or stolen because they aren't being protected by anything. There are many, many historical sites all over the world that are adequately protected and visited by millions of people every year. There are more than two thousand recognised archaeological sites in the Superstitions Wilderness alone, many of which were looted to the point of insignificance prior to their being recognised. Saying that we can't bring our history to light for fear of it being corrupted is antithetical to an understanding of historical preservation.

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:57 pm

For anyone interested in what Lazarus found, do a search for "deity" and you will find the topic: "Mine Deity".

Joe

djui5 · Post by **djui5** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:17 pm

critter wrote:Isn't preventing such an occurance the point of "preservation". If not brought to light, then they are equally susceptible to being destroyed or stolen because they aren't being protected by anything. There are many, many historical sites all over the world that are adequately protected and visited by millions of people every year. There are more than two thousand recognised archaeological sites in the Superstitions Wilderness alone, many of which were looted to the point of insignificance prior to their being recognised. Saying that we can't bring our history to light for fear of it being corrupted is antithetical to an understanding of historical preservation.

Well I disagree in the case of the Superstitions. Maybe in other places, but back there, unless you have someone guarding the site 24/7, it will be desecrated and most likely destroyed beyond recognition.

Just look at what has been destroyed already. I need to cite no further than the ranges own history.

critter · Post by **critter** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:18 pm

Thanks Joe. In my opinion, Laz should get the opportunity to advance his research into the area where he found that artifact, but unfortunately there is no way for him to do that. It's a shame and an injustice to everyone interested in our history. But that's just my personal opinion.

critter

Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:02 pm

Critter,

Brad's original statement was:

"I have posted a few new pictures at the Members Archive, including two photos of a small mine deity I recently found near an old Spanish dig."

You have stated: "In my opinion, Laz should get the opportunity to advance his research into the area where he found that artifact...".

I had no idea that Brad was qualified to do such "research".

It seemed likely, that the "deity" was a modern-day tourist item. I should think that the first order of business, would be to make sure that more research is done on the "deity", prior to doing more research at the site it was found.

If Brad is qualified to dig the site, he should be qualified to authenticate the "deity".

That being said.....Why do you think he should be allowed to do more "research"/digging in an area so close to an archaeological site?

Joe Ribaudo

critter · Post by **critter** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:11 pm

Do you presume that the archaeological site referred to is a recognised site?

To clarify, research into this site includes research into this figurine, they are not mutually exclusive. After all, that is the idea of "archaeological provenance".

The matter of whether or not Laz is qualified is best answered by Laz. Do you consider yourself "qualified" to assess Laz's qualifications? I don't. I can tell you that I most certainly am qualified to conduct historical research of this nature and offer to support Laz in any way I can.

The point is that qualified or not, there is no means by which one may propose to undertake such research activities, be they digging, poking, or prodding. Additionally, if, indeed the item in question were an artifact of archaeological significance, then at present Laz would have no incentive for conducting research into the matter as there may be ramifications.

Anyone else want to miss the point?

Disclaimer:

Of course, this discourse is primarily for the sake of arguement and until we hear otherwise we will presume that the figurine is a modern-day tourist item.

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Joe Ribaudo · Post by **Joe Ribaudo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:35 pm

Critter,

My, my.....aren't we touchy?

"Do you consider yourself "qualified" to assess Laz's qualifications? I don't."

No, I don't. I would, of course, need to know what they were before I could make a close guess. When you say "I don't", are you talking about me.......or yourself?

"do you presume that the archaeological site referred to is a recognised site?"

Of course. Brad said it was a "Spanish dig". Of course, it could have been some guys digging a ditch, but they would have needed to be Spaniards.

"of course, this discourse is primarily for the sake of arguement and until we hear otherwise we will presume that the figurine is a modern-day tourist item."

If that's true, why the fuss over the "shame and injustice"? Beyond that, if it's not a "recognized site", why doesn't Brad just take his shovel and start digging?

"anyone else want to miss the point?"

If, as you say, our conversation "is primarily for the sake of arguement"
I believe I did not miss the point.....at all. Using your reasoning, there was not much of a point to begin with.

Even though I am completely unqualified, my early assessment of the figure turned out to be the same as that offered by Dr. Hill. At this late date, you are still beating the drum that the object that Laz found was an
"artifact".

"I can tell you that I most certainly am qualified to conduct historical research of this nature and offer to support Laz in any way I can."

I don't question your qualifications at all. That's why I would appreciate a qualified answer to this historically based question:

Why do you believe "It's a shame and an injustice to everyone interested in our history.", that Brad does not have the "opportunity to advance his research into the area where he found that artifact"?

That seems a reasonable question, since the "artifact" is likely modern-day tourist junk, and the area may not be a "recognized site", archaeologicaly speaking.

In closing, there is no "archaeological provenance" in Brad's find....yet.

I believe I have adhered to the premise of your "Disclaimer".

Take care,

Joe

critter · Post by **critter** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:19 am

I've answered your questions in my previous posts, but in case you missed the point...

If one's research yields intriguing results, then I think they should be given the opportunity to further that research. If they are not "qualified" or lack experience, then they should have the opportunity to work with someone who can provide the necessary guidance and supervison to undertake the proposed research activities. It is an injustice to prevent someone from practising an activity in which they gain results of merit. The current situation does not even allow us to assess whether or not there is anything of merit to justify further research. We are at an impass. As a result, everyone loses the opportunity to access our collective history. That is a shame. That is my point and that is all I'm saying about that.

I was simply using Laz's find as an example, nothing more or less, just an example to illustrate my main point, which is restated above. You can come to your own conclusions about what Laz has found.

Cheers!

lazarus · Post by **lazarus** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:17 am

Gentlemen,

I can easily see how we got to this mess.
I don't always agree with the existing laws, and it's a terrible shame I can't share what I know, but I agree with Scott on this one. I would never allow some guy who "doesn't do science" to carry a shovel into the mountains.

Obviously, many of us have already proven we don't know what we're talking about. It is understandable why Scott would demonstrate caution before granting permits to a handful of chuckle-heads.

As for Critter, rest assured, he is the scientist others here don't do. He is more than qualified to set the rest of us straight, whether you fellers like it or not.

laz

zentull · Post by **zentull** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:04 pm

Whatever happened to the pictures of "The bad little dude"?

He deserves a better name regardless.

Lost Dutchman Goldmine

Peralta Priest Stone Map, Solved!

Maps

Maps

Maps

Maps

Rendezvous

Maps

On the Rocks

Better idea?

Mine Deity

Re: Better idea?

Yup

Interesting Idea......

Back to the point

Touchy?

One more time...

Maps, etc.