The Stone Maps

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

"As for the maps, with all due respect, if you actually knew how to read them, you would understand why I think the bells are so important."

Many people believe they know how to read the Stone Maps. Nothing unique in that belief. As for "all due respect"......I believe you have addressed that issue a number of times already.

I have my own doubts about your bell expertise, as the Sky Harbor Mission was a no-brainer for anyone who has studied the Spanish mission system. Those doubts and five bucks might get me an average cup of coffee.

The wedding chapel was "open air" and placed there so people from places like California/Hollywood could fly in for a quickie marraige and fly back home with little delay. There was no other reason for it being placed where it was. As it turned out, less than 50 weddings were performed there.


The general shape of the bell is the only thing that can be discerned from the picture you supplied the site for. I have quite a few pictures of missions, and many of them show the bells. No one has asked me to do any research for them, so there is little doubt you are the expert here.

You seem to have some strong opinions of the Sky Harbor Mission bell, so it would be interesting to know how you think it might differ from the San Miguel bell you are going to research.


Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

the date you provided for the airport bell says a great deal, in and of it's own. By 1837, the war with Mexico was still years away, the train hadn't gotten up to steam yet, and the Gadsden Purchase not until 1853. This was still all part of Mexico. Furthermore, the style of the bell is quite different than bells made back East during the same time period.

One must realize that no-one would fake a three hundred pound, inferior quality, Spanish bell and then drag it across country in a wagon.

Obviously, one must conclude the bell was fashioned in the old Spanish style by someone nearby familiar with the task. This person may travel many miles to reach those in need of a bell, as it was far simpler for everyone involved if the bell-maker showed up where the supplies would be waiting... somewhere within reasonable reach of the chapel.

The bell in the airport photo appears to me to be just such a bell, and the date you provided seems to support the possibility.

Regards,
Lazarus

[lazarus]

Joe,

the bell at the chapel of San Miguel is precisely the type of bell I just described. I have already inspected the bell, and took dozens of photographs. I'll be returning to Santa Fe for a follow-up soon.

Some believe that particular bell is quite old, but unfortunately, it isn't quite as old as they would like to imagine. I have a photo of the chapel of an Miguel in my photo archive (Every Picture Tells a Story) The bell in the tower is not the bell in question. The bell is on display inside the chapel, and it is one amazing bell.

Regards,
Lazarus

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

I have seen the bell in the gift shop and know its history. It has long been suspected that the original dates for that bell are erroneous, and it is of much later manufacture.

I have no idea how you can read so much into the bell at Sky Harbor. It is not of "inferior quality" but actually a very nice bell. There is no way, by looking at the picture, that you can tell where it was made or by what foundry.

The assumptions you are making concerning that bell mirror those you are making for the Stone Maps.

Your opinions are just as good as anyone else's, but they remain just that...opinions, qualified by many assumptions.

Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

perhaps...


The airport bell may indeed be a nice looking and even pleasant sounding bell, but the style is very simple, if not crude. It's the classic 'old school' style church bell depicted on Christmas cards, with the clapper slightly off center to facilitate the desired effect. I would be willing to bet there is an off center hole about an inch in diameter beneath the crown of that bell.

Then again, of course I could be wrong. It doesn't require a genius to figure that one out. Without the bell, it's all guesswork.

Still, the airport bell had to go somewhere. As I stated when I brought it up, I'd like to know the story behind that bell, and where it went. There has to be an answer. Your contribution was an excellent start.

Lazarus

[lazarus]

Joe,

let's break down the semantics, shall we...

In all honesty, you are assuming I am assuming, are you not?

Laz

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

I am pretty sure you assumed that there was a mission at Sky Harbor.
There are many assumptions in your Waltz story, but that applies to everyone who dabbles in the LDM Legend.

"The airport bell may indeed be a nice looking and even pleasant sounding bell, but the style is very simple, if not crude."

Since you have not seen the Sky Harbor bell.....except for the picture, I would say this is a pretty obvious assumption. In truth, it would not surprise me if the bell was a high quality "Spanish" made product.

I am not sure how "semantics" enters into my posts, but will take your word for it.

You presented the connection between the missions and the Stone Maps without a single piece of evidence to tie the two things together. Historical statements, like yours, need some reliable sources or evidence.
Without either of those two things, I believe we are discussing opinions with a heavy dose of assumptions.

Nothing wrong with that, but you should not be offended if some doubt is voiced to your assertions. Is that unreasonable?

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

Placed a picture of two Spanish style bells in "Old Pictures". It's a much better picture than the wedding chapel bell. What's your opinion?

Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

you are right about the chapel bit, and frankly based on the location, along Buckeye road, and so close to the the river, I am not at all convinced there wasn't a chapel in the area at one point.

The facade is obviously nothing more than a facade, which I had not noticed till you brought it to my attention. Didn't change my mind, though.

Your bell photo is quite nice. Those bells are similar to the airport bell, but somewhat smaller and lighter. Not much.

The clappers are original, but appear to be attached from inside. The crowns look right. The more I stare, the better they look. The markings appear authentic.

These appear to be authentic and fairly old. What do you know about them?

As for the mine...
doing things your way has led to over a hundred years of dead-ends and disappointment. When you lose your keys, how many times are you going to look under the couch before you realize the keys are not there?

The evidence does not back your theories... not for a moment. No sense in me repeating your mistakes.

As for the bells, of course I am not prepared to further explain the connection. It just wouldn't be prudent.

Laz

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

Not sure what you mean by doing things my way. I have not failed to find the LDM, as I was never looking for it......on my own. I do have an opinion, but have never made the climb up that ravine. I know there is a mine up there, but have never seen it myself. It is sealed.

"The facade is obviously nothing more than a facade, which I had not noticed till you brought it to my attention. Didn't change my mind, though."

Of course it didn't.

Other than a (very) general shape, there seems to be no way to compare the bells in the two pictures. Without visiting the Left Seat Restaurant, it's possible that the real bell was removed years ago and replaced with a plywood cutout.

Spanish missions needed two things: Indians to convert or Spainards to minister to. In many cases it was both. Were either of those two things present, in sufficiant numbers, at that location?

You made some very specific observations about the Sky Harbor bell. With the much better picture of the two bells I have posted, are you able to tell me the method of casting, where they were made, about how old they are or how the clappers are attached?

Stating that the bell at San Miguel is not as old as they suspected will not be anything new for the Priests that are there now. Other "experts" have been saying the same thing for many years.

Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

good morning.

The more I think about it, the bells in your photo seem a tad small.

Authentic, perhaps...
but too small for my purposes.

Great bells, however. I wish they were hanging in my back yard.

What's the deal with the Left Seat? Is it still around, or is it now a runway?

My father worked at Precision Products.

Laz

[lazarus]

Joe,

by the way...
the bells in your photo are quite crude indeed, and almost certainly don't sound so good.

Mostly Iron. They probably sound like a skillet.

I still think they are very cool!

Laz

[lazarus]

Joe,

I already stated the clappers in your photo appear to be attached from inside. The chain is also somewhat curious.

Neither bell appears very thick. They also seem to contain too much Iron.

Bells like these are not produced in a bell foundry. These bells were almost certainly produced somewhere in the Sonora desert region.

But what do I know...
right, Joe?

As for the bell at the chapel of San Miguel, they were really hoping I would come to a different conclusion.

Laz

[lazarus]

Joe,

One more thing...

it seems obvious you are going to great lengths in your attempt to trip me up. I am fine with that. It is what you seem to enjoy, and apparently what you are best at, so knock yourself out!

Two sets of eyes are bound to see more than one set, and when one set sees things different, the other set tends to take a closer look.

The truth trumps ego. I'd rather get to the bottom of things than stick with a bad interpretation.

Laz

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

You are more than correct. I am good at taking someone who has painted a huge target on themselves, and sticking a harpoon in them.
I don't go "to great lengths" to "trap" you. For anyone who knows anything about Spanish history......you trap yourself.

As for the bells......That's your baby from the git-go. Having a passing interest in the history of Mexico, Arizona and all points south, I know a little about the mission system and the Priests that created and manned them.

I have no problem admitting that you and any number of folks know a lot more than I do, and when someone writes something that I know for a fact is pure b.s., I should just ignore it. In this case, everyone who doesn't know better, would have been telling everyone they know that there was an old mission at Sky Harbor Airport.....Brad had a picture.....

History gets changed one word, and sometimes one picture at a time. In my case, I hate that! Father Kino did not wear sunglasses.

Let's just keep this about the Stone Maps, and we can all pretend we know something the other guy doesn't. When you stray into missions and bells, the evidence for authenticity is all over the place. Much of it sits on my book shelves.

If I don't remember the facts, which happens often these days, I only need to have enough interest to pick up the proper book and turn the pages.

In the case of the Sky Harbor Mission, I did not need more than my fading memory.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

The Left Seat Restaurant has been around for quite awhile. I assume it is still in the same spot. The food was really good, especially for an airport. You will find a lot of pilots and crews eating there.

The two bells are dated 1738 (left) and 1776 (right). The one on the left is marked "Santa Maria Magdalena" and the one on the right, "Santa Concepcion".

The bells are hanging if front of a ramada, which is "mostly" all that marks Santa Barbara de Huirivis. Many bells were moved around a number of times. For the most part Huirivis was a "visita".

Although it is not mentioned, I believe the bell labeled "Santa Concepcion" is from La Purisima Concepcion de Nuestra Senora de Caborca. Because of the date, it seems likely that the bell was commisioned by Father Juan Gorgol, a Franciscan. Another Franciscian, Father Jose Moreno may have been the one to order the bell.

Santa Maria Magdalena de Buquivaba, a minor "visita" as well. It would seem to be the likely candidate for the other bell because of the history surrounding that date.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

WOW! I need a proof reader. Hit submit instead of preview.

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

"I could tell the surrounding buildings weren't original, but the front facade looks quite reasonable. Bells could of course, be purchased...
but not those bells."

Because of the claimed date of construction for the Sky Harbor bell, it could very well have been purchased 100 years earlier by the church that provided it to the Jr. Chamber Of Commerce.

It was not unusual for sea Captains of that time to purchase church bells in Spain to be used as ballast on their ships. There were many bells for sale from monasteries in Malaga. They had been taken by insurrectionists and left lying next to the roads.

Mexico was also a source for bells. The two bells in my picture likely came from Jesuit and Franciscan chapels that were neglected or destroyed.

Many of those bells wound up hanging in the church bell towers of America. Some weighed over 2000 pounds. The bell in San Miguel, I posted a picture in "Old Pictures", weighs considerably less than that.

"Two sets of eyes are bound to see more than one set, and when one set sees things different, the other set tends to take a closer look.

The truth trumps ego. I'd rather get to the bottom of things than stick with a bad interpretation."

Very well put. That's the very reason I started the Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. Put enough people and ideas together in one place, and something good usually comes out of the mix. The same thing applies to this Forum.

The problems arise when someone believes the other guy is of lower intelligence because he does not agree with us. That opinion has been voiced a number of times on this site.

Personally, I seldom make absolute statements because I expect someone, or several someones, to challange everything I write. That just makes me a better researcher.

I still make mistakes, and appreciate when it's pointed out. I have been here a number of years, and don't believe I have ever failed to thank any person who corrects me. Corrections without sources are another matter. Those are just opposing opinions.

Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

you're a waste of time. Nothing but nonsense. You have no idea what you are even talking about.

Go play by yourself now.


Brad

[lazarus]

Joe,

actually, your info above is fine. Some of these bells can be found on ship manifests.

That aside, I don't wish to waste anymore time with you. You are a horrible person!


Brad

[lazarus]

All,

I'm sure you all realize why I'm fed up with Joe...
He goes to great lengths to cause trouble, regardless of the subject.

Change the subject, and Joe simply changes his attack.

He's all yours.


Brad

[Joe Ribaudo]

Brad,

This is my topic. If you want to attack me personally, please take it to the First Amendment or Boxing and Wrestling Forum.

Thank you,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

There are three Xs on the Stone Maps. As it turned out.....years after I had placed them on my topographic map, one is very close to the location of Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars, and by coincidence there is an empty cave at that location. The next one to the northeast is a sealed mine and is exactly where I placed it over thirty years ago.

At this time, the third X is the most intriguing. It is halfway between Weaver's Needle and the point where the trail in East Boulder Canyon takes a sharp turn to the west.

It is close to Al Morrow's camp and Al claimed, later denied, that he found a cave of gold bars while searching for Bob Brady's cave. That makes two caves of gold bars, both with bars of the same description, possibly shown on the Stone Maps.

One thing is certain.....both are within the boundries of the maps and very close to the Xs.

One of the locator dots on the Stone Maps is the peak on the north side of Tim's Saddle. Another is the lower of the two hills on the northeast side of Black Top Mesa. If you draw a line through those two locator dots, it passes very close to where Adolph Ruth's body was found, or so we are told.

Two lines on the Stone Maps run in a northwesterly direction. One comes from the locator dot which is the highest point on Bluff Spring Mountain. If you draw a line between that 4152' point and the locator dot at Tim's Saddle, it passes directly through the circle in a circle.

The other line is the one made by one of the stones in the Cactus Marker.
It passes through the triangle that is located in Little Boulder Canyon. There is a large mineral deposit in that triangle. It pegged two seperate metal detectors. Both detectors were of high quality.

The heart sets directly above that triangle. Those two things are in the center of the Stone Map Heart.

Theories are a wonderful thing. They give you something to dream about.
I have given you something that each one of you can touch. If that creates a dream.......so much the better.

Is any of it worth looking at? The only way you will know it to walk the Stone Map Trail as I have done. Remember this, it could all be a hoax, using known places, trails and canyons in the mountains to create the maps.

The only thing that makes me doubt that, is the fact that my uncle, Tracy Hawkins, Ernie Provence and the rest of the searchers held Harry LaFrance's gold bar in their hands. They all saw an assay report on that gold bar. I have absolutely no doubt about that.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

For anyone who is interested in the history of the missions, I have posted a picture of a drawing of Santa Maria Magdalena from John Bartlett's Personal Narrative. Those two volumes will give you Bartlett's unique perspective from the period right after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

There are fine re-prints from 1965 which are available at a reasonable price. The original first editions are a bit pricey.

Joe Ribaudo

[lazarus]

Joe,

I am very interested in learning more about missions, although I can't seem to find the photo you posted.

I currently have two books on the subject, not including my Santa Fe research, and still I know far less than I'd like. Information is priceless.

Brad