We had an excellent dialogue on the Forum with 72 Replies and 1617 Views on the topic "LDM Mine Descriptions - Your Favorite Clue". Let's now explore what we think the physical LDM mine looks like. There are a number of documented descriptions of the mine itself in the literature - some that are well know and some that are not. Here are two for starters - you add yours:
1. Bark Notes Pages 25-26 The Dutch Jake Story (Thomas Probert version):
"Helena and Rhines said that Jake told them that there were two pits at the mine, about seventy-five feet deep and a like distance across the top; that they were lined with mesquite wood and would drop about six feet, then an offset of about a foot, and so on down to the bottom.
2. Bark Notes Pages 100-101 Deering's Story (Probert Version):
".... There was a tunnel, and it had been walled up......The wall had settled about eight inches, and I don't know how deep the tunnel was. Above the tunnel and further over, there it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled."
I have found a number of other references to the two shafts (not one) and the tunnel below them. Note that Deering had found the LDM in roughly Sept of 1885 which was only 6 years before Jacob Waltz died but after Jake's last visit to the mine. The shafts were still somewhat exposed - this indicates that the neither theIndians nor Waltz had covered the mine as reported in the Holmes Notes.
This should probably create some conversation. Your inputs please.
Roger
The LDM Mine - What Does It Look Like?????
Roger
Remember that in both the stories of the Soldiers and Deering that the TUNNEL was found first. Why? Well, both parties followed a well worn trail into a very rough area and found a tunnel at the end of their proverbial rainbow. They looked around some and then found the shaft(s) (and I agree with you that there was probably two...maybe more) and a mine dump. This, of course,would have taken some doing, because if the tunnel was found in the area where I think it was, then the climb up to the shafts above the tunnel would have a very steep ascent. It might (as the Deering legend says) have been easier to get above the shaft area and "go down".
Here's something else to chew on. John Chunning, as we all know by now,
spent many a year building rope ladders and climbing up and down cliff faces up on Tortilla Mtn..on information he received from Deering. This would indicate to this pontificator that Deering told Chunning that the mine
was in a very steep/cliff like area..and that one might need a rope or ladder to reach it.
As to Deering finding the shafts "pretty well filled in".
The fact that Deering found the tunnel WALLED UP (but settled some) indicates to me that someone tried to conceal it. It would be logical to assume this person would also try to conceal the shafts above. Did Waltz try to conceal both the tunnel and shafts in the late '70s..and they had both settled some? Did he revisit the mine area in the mid '80s and this time complete the job? Who can say...but it does make some sort of sense.
One more thing. I now think that there is the distinct possiblity that the Deering/Soldiers Mine and the place Waltz was trying to send Thomas and Holmes may have been two different locations. I still believe that the Deering Mine and the mine Waltz worked were one and the same...but that Waltz's "deathbed" directions were to his cache..not the mine itself. Fairly close (as distance is reckoned in the mountains) but still some distance apart.
Good post Roger. I am happy to see you do your homework. Looks like we have boh taken the same class...Bark Notes 101...lol
Remember that in both the stories of the Soldiers and Deering that the TUNNEL was found first. Why? Well, both parties followed a well worn trail into a very rough area and found a tunnel at the end of their proverbial rainbow. They looked around some and then found the shaft(s) (and I agree with you that there was probably two...maybe more) and a mine dump. This, of course,would have taken some doing, because if the tunnel was found in the area where I think it was, then the climb up to the shafts above the tunnel would have a very steep ascent. It might (as the Deering legend says) have been easier to get above the shaft area and "go down".
Here's something else to chew on. John Chunning, as we all know by now,
spent many a year building rope ladders and climbing up and down cliff faces up on Tortilla Mtn..on information he received from Deering. This would indicate to this pontificator that Deering told Chunning that the mine
was in a very steep/cliff like area..and that one might need a rope or ladder to reach it.
As to Deering finding the shafts "pretty well filled in".
The fact that Deering found the tunnel WALLED UP (but settled some) indicates to me that someone tried to conceal it. It would be logical to assume this person would also try to conceal the shafts above. Did Waltz try to conceal both the tunnel and shafts in the late '70s..and they had both settled some? Did he revisit the mine area in the mid '80s and this time complete the job? Who can say...but it does make some sort of sense.
One more thing. I now think that there is the distinct possiblity that the Deering/Soldiers Mine and the place Waltz was trying to send Thomas and Holmes may have been two different locations. I still believe that the Deering Mine and the mine Waltz worked were one and the same...but that Waltz's "deathbed" directions were to his cache..not the mine itself. Fairly close (as distance is reckoned in the mountains) but still some distance apart.
Good post Roger. I am happy to see you do your homework. Looks like we have boh taken the same class...Bark Notes 101...lol
Aurum
I hope you are wrong about the vegetation theory. Just what I'd like to do is tackle a nice big stand of cholla, chain fruit or prickly pear....ouch
Its interesting that both Walter Gassler and Brownie Holmes may have been looking for a stand of trees on a mountainside that was supposedly a landmark to the LDM. This was in the 1930s or so, so I imagine there was a good 40+ years for trees to grow since the mine was covered.
Something I have been mulling over concerning the "tunnel". While I beleive there was a crosscut dug below the shaft area I have never come across any evidence/hearsay/anecdotes saying that Waltz or anyone else took mineral wealth out of the tunnel area. I mean zilch,zero, zippo, nada.
I wonder if the tunnel even existed in the time of the Mexican miners...or perhaps it was started later on by highgraders or peons who came back after the big fight and found the shafts too difficult to work? Perhaps the tunnel never did get far enough back to hit the vein...but the fact that it existed indicated the presence of mining..therefore it too had to be hidden?
Just thinking aloud here...who knows...
I hope you are wrong about the vegetation theory. Just what I'd like to do is tackle a nice big stand of cholla, chain fruit or prickly pear....ouch
Its interesting that both Walter Gassler and Brownie Holmes may have been looking for a stand of trees on a mountainside that was supposedly a landmark to the LDM. This was in the 1930s or so, so I imagine there was a good 40+ years for trees to grow since the mine was covered.
Something I have been mulling over concerning the "tunnel". While I beleive there was a crosscut dug below the shaft area I have never come across any evidence/hearsay/anecdotes saying that Waltz or anyone else took mineral wealth out of the tunnel area. I mean zilch,zero, zippo, nada.
I wonder if the tunnel even existed in the time of the Mexican miners...or perhaps it was started later on by highgraders or peons who came back after the big fight and found the shafts too difficult to work? Perhaps the tunnel never did get far enough back to hit the vein...but the fact that it existed indicated the presence of mining..therefore it too had to be hidden?
Just thinking aloud here...who knows...
Vegatation Over A Pit Mine
The idea of vegatation being over the top of one of the Peralta/Gonzales pit mines is interesting. There are several old timers' stories of a pit mine having trees planted over it to disquise it and stories indicate the Indians placed vegation over it also.
In his phamplet, The Lost Peralta - Dutchman Mine (1983 - available from SMHS), Walter Gassler describes on Page 11 a story that Tex Barkley told him:
"Tex told me he knew a very old Indian woman, an Apache over in Superior to whom he did a favor one time and she said when she was a small girl of about 6 years of age she went with her mother and a small tribe of Apaches up into the Superstitions Mountains, she said that they had a camp on top of a small ridge and it took the women almost 6 months to cover up a mine, she said it was coneshaped had huge treepole in the middle with a iron chain you could grab and walk or climb down into the pit by going around and around, she claimed they threw the pole the chain and the tools all in the pit and started to cover it with boulders and rocks then dirt and they planted trees and bushes so it looked natural, so that should give anybody a idea just what a job it is going to be to open the place if its is there not even a metal detector would do any good in this case."
Walter found a grove of trees on top of Peters Mesa above Squaw Box in 1936 based on Tex Barkley's directions which he again visited 40 years later with these observations on Page 13:
"However, I found the ridge then the bottom of the wash then all at once I looked up at the ridge and found the 3 stones and then the charcoal pits and the tree grove, just to show you how secluded that place is I left a 5 gallon tin can I used for water there in the bushes and 40 years later I went there to see the place, yes you guessed it, the can was stil there all by itself however the trees I think will not be there much longer it has been over 20 years since I have been back there and then there were only 2 or 3 left, the funny part of it is they would only grow 2-3 inches thick maybe 5-6 feet tall then fall over, mostly Laurel trees, but there were some small cottonwood trees there too back in the late 30's but they have all died it used to be a very pretty place, then I noticed to my surprise that the ground around th trees was settling leaving th roots 2-3 inches exposed and I realized that maybe the roots had no way of holding on to the ground and fall over when they got so big."
I do think the Peralta's had a pit mine up on Peters Mesa in the area that Walter is describing. This is consistent with the Willam Edwards Diary (Helen Corbin's The Bible on the LDM Page276) of him finding an arrastra at that same location and his conclusion that the gangue from the pit was thrown in Pistol Canyon to disquise it. An interesting thought is that could the trees that Walter found in 1936 had been planted over the pit mine by the Indians and the ground had settled around them over the years due to it being soft fill and the trees would lose their footing and fall over. Walter may have been standing on top of the mine - fancy that.
I still do not think the pit mine on Peters Mesa is the LDM which is in a high up canyon - not on a flat ridge.
Roger
In his phamplet, The Lost Peralta - Dutchman Mine (1983 - available from SMHS), Walter Gassler describes on Page 11 a story that Tex Barkley told him:
"Tex told me he knew a very old Indian woman, an Apache over in Superior to whom he did a favor one time and she said when she was a small girl of about 6 years of age she went with her mother and a small tribe of Apaches up into the Superstitions Mountains, she said that they had a camp on top of a small ridge and it took the women almost 6 months to cover up a mine, she said it was coneshaped had huge treepole in the middle with a iron chain you could grab and walk or climb down into the pit by going around and around, she claimed they threw the pole the chain and the tools all in the pit and started to cover it with boulders and rocks then dirt and they planted trees and bushes so it looked natural, so that should give anybody a idea just what a job it is going to be to open the place if its is there not even a metal detector would do any good in this case."
Walter found a grove of trees on top of Peters Mesa above Squaw Box in 1936 based on Tex Barkley's directions which he again visited 40 years later with these observations on Page 13:
"However, I found the ridge then the bottom of the wash then all at once I looked up at the ridge and found the 3 stones and then the charcoal pits and the tree grove, just to show you how secluded that place is I left a 5 gallon tin can I used for water there in the bushes and 40 years later I went there to see the place, yes you guessed it, the can was stil there all by itself however the trees I think will not be there much longer it has been over 20 years since I have been back there and then there were only 2 or 3 left, the funny part of it is they would only grow 2-3 inches thick maybe 5-6 feet tall then fall over, mostly Laurel trees, but there were some small cottonwood trees there too back in the late 30's but they have all died it used to be a very pretty place, then I noticed to my surprise that the ground around th trees was settling leaving th roots 2-3 inches exposed and I realized that maybe the roots had no way of holding on to the ground and fall over when they got so big."
I do think the Peralta's had a pit mine up on Peters Mesa in the area that Walter is describing. This is consistent with the Willam Edwards Diary (Helen Corbin's The Bible on the LDM Page276) of him finding an arrastra at that same location and his conclusion that the gangue from the pit was thrown in Pistol Canyon to disquise it. An interesting thought is that could the trees that Walter found in 1936 had been planted over the pit mine by the Indians and the ground had settled around them over the years due to it being soft fill and the trees would lose their footing and fall over. Walter may have been standing on top of the mine - fancy that.
I still do not think the pit mine on Peters Mesa is the LDM which is in a high up canyon - not on a flat ridge.
Roger
I know of at least three different descriptions of the mine. The Bark Notes speak repeatedly of two funnel like pits with a tunnel below. Ely and, as I recall, Bicknell speak of a single pit with a tunnel below. While George Holmes and John D. Mitchell speak of a small shaft with a tunnel below. None of the maps that I know of, and none I put any credence in, show more that one shaft or pit. Are these the same mine? Or, are they different mines? One last question, if the LDM is a very rich gold mine in a relatively narrow quartz vein why would Spanish or Mexicans dig a big pit, let alone two, to mine it?