THE FRANK ALKIRE STORY......?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Frank Alkire was a well respected pioneer in Arizona, and in particular the Phoenix area.

In 1971 Robert Joseph Allen published a 212 page paperback book called, "The Story of Superstition Mountain and the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine".

Allen's book may qualify as one of the worst ever published on the history of the LDM. I read it many, many years ago, and never picked it up again until recently. It may be that Allen only passed along the stories in that book as he heard them, but since he credits the Alkire story to Frank Alkire himself, related to Allen personally by Frank, his veracity is highly suspect.

That story has been repeated by some very well respected authors and Dutch Hunters. Few have vouched for its truthfulness, but it has been suggested that the sources were very good.

I believe that efforts were made to discredit Julia Thomas after Waltz's death by many of the citizens of Phoenix. That effort is continuing to this day. The original reasons for that denigration of the woman who showed only kindness to Waltz in his final days can only be guessed at.

Julia had accused a well liked and respected Phoenix resident of stealing the box of gold ore from beneath Waltz's deathbed. Being a businesswoman, and black to boot, would have generated resentment from may in the Phoenix of 1891. Add to that, the unproven accusations against Dick Holmes, and you might see some backlash.

Here are parts of a post I placed on Peter's Forum:
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It may be too late to make sure everyone understands what I believe about the Alkire story, but here are some of the statements I have made

What this does, IMHO, is cast some doubts on the stories that have been in circulation concerning the details surrounding the death of Jacob Waltz. In particular, I believe the story attributed to Frank Alkire is questionable. That and five bucks will buy me an average cup of coffee. On the other hand, the story could be true......in every detail.

I also have great respect for the work of our modern-day authors. Having said that, each and every one of them have errors in their books. Any fabrications or false stories were simply taking what they heard or read at face value.

The one thing I am sure of, is that Bertie Roberts is as good as it gets. Was there a date for that interview? You would think the discussion would have triggered my memory about her interview.

The fact that these stories came through Bertie Roberts gives them a great deal of reliability. That does not mean her source is unassailable but, in my opinion, she personally is.
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Those quotes are exactly as I wrote them, without any edits.

At this point in time, I don't believe the Joseph Allen story about Frank Alkire. He claims his source was Alkire himself. Some of that story is outright fabrication. Much of the research that has been done here exposes those facts.

I have tried to show that I have no doubt about the honesty and sincerity of those who have passed along this story. It may be that they have evidence that we have not been privy to. I have written that the story could very well be true.

Our research should not be considered an attack on Thomas Glover or Helen Corbin, or anyone living today who has repeated that story.

If the original teller of that story made it up, and we can piece together the truth about it, we owe it to history to pursue the facts wherever they lead. Books can be corrected, and should be.

NOTE! I changed a few things in this portion of my original post which some people might find offensive.
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Doug Stewart's opinion of Allen's book can be read here:

http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/e ... Allen.HTML

A good deal of information and hard research on this subject was posted on Peter's Forum. As that site has been down for around a week now, I have decided to start the conversation over here. When it comes back up, we will continue to post over there as well.

A number of people have done some very good research on the history surrounding this story, and it needs to be brought to light, IMHO. Right now, there is no evidence, that we have seen, that indicates that the Allen story of Frank Alkire's personal remembrances of the details surrounding the death of Jacob Waltz has any basis in truth. That may change with further research.

At this time, nothing written by Frank Alkire has been found, by us, to corroborate this story.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

For some reason the computer changed the last part of this link to all upper-case. I think it will work this time.

http://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/e ... allen.html

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

I have tried twice to post a reply and neither took. Both times it timed out.......

Hopefully this one will go..

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Don't know what the problem could be. Let's see if my reply to your reply sticks........

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

Here goes........

I think what has been researched, documented and posted the last year is pretty impressive. From the Erwin Ruth letters to the current Alkire subject matter and all points in between, we have established some foundation on which to work with the stories and try to clear the ground for future research.

Opinion and speculation are always fun and can lead us in the right direction, but having factual representation for those opinions in the future can help clear the air and hopefully begin a better overview of what we thought we knew.........

In a nutshell that was the original post. Kind of.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I would have loved to find evidence that the Alkire/Waltz story had some truth in it, just because it has been accepted as true by a number of people I admire and respect. That does not mean it's all a lie, but some parts have been proven (documentation) to be false.

I have gone through every letter that Frank Alkire gave to the Historical Society in Tucson. He never mentions Waltz or Julia Thomas in any of them. There were no restrictions on the material that Frank donated, so I assume I have seen all of the letters.

I have read the manuscripts that have been mentioned as possible sources for the story, and they have also turned up empty. By the time I am done, I expect to know if there is anything in the Frank Alkire Collection that could shed any light on this subject.

This seems to be a "dime store novel" that should have remained in that venue.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

The personal letters from the Alkire Collection span the years from 1886 to 1940. Many of those letters were from Frank to his wife. They were written from the ranch and sent to her when she was in Pomona, CA.

They are in chronological order and were sent on a regular basis.........often. In the entire collection, he never mentions Jacob Waltz or Julia Thomas once. In 54 years of writing, 49 of them since Waltz's death he never mentions that story.

There does not seem to be one shred of evidence, that has survived, in the Alkire Collection in Tucson to back up this story. Beyond that, the evidence that has been produced, disproves much of what is claimed in the story. On the other hand, it's a story that could sell some soap.....any time.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Opinion and speculation are always fun and can lead us in the right direction, but having factual representation for those opinions in the future can help clear the air and hopefully begin a better overview of what we thought we knew.........

You betcha!!!

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne and Randy,

"Opinion and speculation" are two of the things that led me into doubting the story of Adolph Ruth, as we have been told it, and the Frank Alkire story. Other's felt the same way, and it was only natural that we find our paths coming together. I have to admire the way that Garry, Paul and Larry have gone after the truth down the long cold trails that lead to it.

I still believe it's important that we not change history. Not one word at a time, nor an avalanche of words. Speak or write the truth, and let the chips fall where they may. History, IMHO, is more important than anyone's ego. Given the facts, Thomas Glover would go back and change the next edition of his book, which remains the best of the genre, without a whimper.....same as any true historian.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

For anyone who is interested:

The Frank Tomlin Alkire Collection is housed at the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson, AZ.

The documents cover the period from 1886 to 1953. Frank donated the collection starting in 1939 and ending in 1941.

The following is a complete list of what the Historical Society has:

BOX AND FOLDER LIST
Box 1, Series 1: Manuscripts (literary)

f.1 "A Century and a Half Mystery Solved"
f.2 "The Contrast"
f.3 "Happy Bob," "Ol' Kaintuc," "Look-See Trip"
f.4 "Iron Springs Camp"
f.5 "Little Lady"
f.6 "Payson and Indian Gardens," "Mrs. Frank Alkire"
f.7 "Pioneer Business Firms of Arizona"
f.8 "Prelude to the Contrast"
f.9 "Road of Yesterday," "Scalping Knife"
f.10 "A Wedding Trip"

Box 2. Series 2: Business Correspondence, 1886-1899

f.11-24 1886-1899

Box 3, Series 2: Business Correspondence, 1900-1953

f. 25-f. 32 1900-1905

Box 4, Series 3: Business Papers and Documents, 1886-1929

f.33 Business Documents, 1886-1902
f.34 Bills and Receipts, 1886-1894
f.35 Cancelled Checks, 1886-1888
f.36 Printed Material
f.37 Letters of Introduction, 1924-1929
f.38 Mining Documents, 1897-1918
f.39 Dry Goods Business
f.40 Manufacturing Stationers Business
f.41 Telephone Company, 1909-1910
f.42 Salt River Valley Waters Users Association
f.43 Banking Materials
f.44 Miscellaneous

Box 4, Series 4: Personal Papers and Correspondence

f.45 Personal Correspondence, 1887-1888
f.46 Personal Correspondence, 1890-1892
f.47 Miscellaneous Personal Correspondence, 1886-1940

Box 5, Series 5: Arizona National Guard, 1896-1912 (Bulk: 1906-1912)

f.48-f.60 I will pass on listing each of the files.

Box 6, Series 6

3 Items: 1 World War I Cartoon Book
1 Scrapbook of newspaper clippings (Arizona related, undated)
1 Scrapbook of newspaper clippings (1886-1950)

If there are any specific questions concerning any of the manuscripts or personal letters, I will be happy to answer what I can.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Here are two posts from Matthew Roberts, which deal directly with this subject:

12-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Aurum
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 531



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Zen,

Consider what the final days of Jacob Waltz did to Dick Holmes, Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch.

When Waltz died, Dick Holmes was renting a small house on Jackson Street, the same block where Julia and Rhinehart were living. (Mohave and Jackson).
Dick Holmes had a wife and a stepson to provide for and another son on the way which would be born in 5 months. Within 6 months of Waltz's death, Holmes had purchased a new house at (today) 1011 N. 11th street in Phoenix. At that time the home was just outside the Phoenix limits and was considered a farm. Holmes paid cash for the property and also purchased a new wagon. A fair turnaround of fortune.

Rhinehart Petrasch was still living in Julia's bording house and working for Julia and Alex Steinegger as a clerk. Over the next year he and Julia and his father and brother looked for Waltz's mine with no success. When Julia sold her business, Rhinehart was reduced to doing odd jobs around town wherever he could find them.

Rhinehart and Julia blamed Dick Holmes for their misfortune and many around Phoenix sided with them in that belief. Whether that was the case or not has been heatedly debated for the last 115 years.

Aurum

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12-04-2006, 01:27 PM
Aurum
Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 531



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TC,

You have hit on a point that has always stuck in my craw. It proves a point about what actually happened in the last day/hours of Jacob Waltz's life.

Why did Julia allowed the situation to get out of her control ? If Waltz was dying in her boarding house like many still believe, Julia would have been able to keep Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts out of her home and go for a doctor or ask someone else to sit with Waltz.

But the fact is, Julia didn't have control in those last days/hours. Waltz was not lying in a bed in Julia's boarding house on Jackson street, he was lying in a back room of Julia's bakery on Washington Street.

A while back I posted on another website, a detailed floor plan of her bakery from the 1891 Sanford fire map of the city of Phoenix. This map detailed every building in the town, complete with entrances, exits and partitions.

The fire map showed a small back room of her bakery had an outside entrance from an alley then known as "Cactus Way". This meant someone didn't have to go through Julia's bakery to get to this back room. They could have come and gone from the alley entrance. This was how Holmes and Roberts got into Waltz's room as he was dying. Julia may not have even known they were there until later. Holmes and Roberts may have spent the entire time from late Saturday evening to when Waltz died the next morning at 6:00AM in the room with Waltz and Julia may not have known about it until she went to check on him early that Sunday morning.

Aurum

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Last edited by Aurum : 12-04-2006 at 01:36 PM.
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For me personally, I believe that Matthew has the inside scoop on these events. After all, one of his ancestors was there. There are a few detaills where he is in error, but after looking at all of the conflicting stories that surround the death of Jacob Waltz, I'm surprised we even have the correct name and date of death right.

For those still trying to find the LDM, you might wonder why any of this has any bearing on your search.

It really, for me, boils down to which story you believe and how much you should accept as the truth. Once you find an author has told/written a story, where many of the details are demonstrably false, you might be inclined to suspect the details you think might be true. This should lead you to double your research into those facts, just to be sure.

Until someone finds the Alkire story in Frank's own handwriting, I will continue to believe the story is a complete fabrication by one man. It just gets harder and harder to seperate the wheat from the chaff in the LDM legend.

Joe Ribaudo

[zentull]

Joe,

Years ago while attending community college I had an hour and a half to kill between classes. I spent part of that time sitting in the back of an American folklore class. The instructor booted me after a bit, but he was amazed that I had even gotten a hold of text books to follow along and had done the required reading. I didn't need the class, but figured it was a fun way to waste time.

So much of the LDM lore follows typical American folklore. While Frank Alkire may have talked about Julia Schaffer and the LDM, chances are what we have is a tale woven from various accounts over a long period of time. It is common that as the years go by the story becomes an authentic representation of the truth, even if documentation shows it isn't.

A great book I am running through a second time this week is "The Life and Times Of A Legend:Bigfoot" by Joshua Buhs. You can see the creation of a myth from the Yeti to Sasquatch to Bigfoot and It will leave even a diehard believer with doubts. It is a great example of how even those who did not believe and gave excellent alternative explanations, furthered the story and unwittingly became proponets of Bigfoots existence.

I think much of the same applies to the LDM

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I have always found the "Bigfoot" stories interesting, so I looked into the history of the legends some time ago. Never ginned up enough interest to sustain serious research. When I do get interested in a subject, I tend to spend too much time and money.

Luckily I have a wife who understand and accepts my passions. I can see where my hobbies could break up some marriages. I am a lucky man. In fact, It was Carolyn's suggestion that we take one of our spare bedrooms and turn it into a library/research office for me. The end results was a very comfortable room. Even our pup loves it in there.

As you mentioned in another post, I doubt Frank ran in the same circles as those closest to the Jacob Waltz death stories. It seems obvious, at least to me, that there was a bit of (old) money in that family. I still maintain that the story that is attributed to Frank Alkire would not be left out of the collection that he gave to the Historical Society. Maybe Greg will find it in Phoenix. At this point, I am satisfied that it never happened.

Julia does not deserve to have her relationship with Waltz, and his final hours, turned into such an ugly thing. When she accused Dick Holmes, and by extension Gideon Roberts, of stealing the ore from under Waltz's deathbed, she created a lot of local enemies. In my opinion, that's where a lot of these unflattering stories came from.

Mostly personal opinion, but my doubts about the Alkire story are based on the facts that we have dug up, especially Larry and Garry. Hard to go against that quality of research.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

Funny thing is Joe, Theres not much to the account of the whole Julia/Holmes thing either. There are at least a dozen variations of that story as well and I never thought it was really relevant one way or the other.

In my opinion, if you levitate a chair while I am sitting in the same room and I can find no tricks.....you levitated a chair. Tell me the story or show me a tape. You just claimed to have done so, but the truth of the matter is based on my ability to suspend disbelief. I have sat around too many campfires and heard friends, family and complete strangers tell too many lies to just roll over and accept it. I was rolling my eyes as a boy and will continue to do so.

I don't think any less of the above, in fact I hope I hear as many in the future. May the story tellers tell their tales as long as they wish, I will always find a seat to listen in.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

"Theres not much to the account of the whole Julia/Holmes thing either. There are at least a dozen variations of that story as well and I never thought it was really relevant one way or the other."

If you are trying to establish truth to the Holmes Manuscript/story, I believe it is more than relevant. If the part's leading up to the deathbed story can be shown to be false, you might have serious doubts as to the truthfulness of the entire story........including the Waltz quotes.

It has always been my opinion that Dick Holmes made up the entire story to establish his "ownership" of the Waltz ore. In that vein, I doubt he ever told Brownie the truth, or if he did, Brownie kept that part of the story to himself.

I have always been partial to the Ely/Bark narrative of events. It's always been obvious that they got some things wrong, but neither of them started out by stealing Waltz's gold. Too many folks were writing "factual" stories (Hell, I Was There!) using the rumors and lies that were all over the place after Waltz died.

If Frank Alkire were there, he would have left the story in his collection. After all, the entire collection is trying to leave a record of the life and flavor of his times. That kind of story would be recognized by Frank as.......classic.

All just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

It really, for me, boils down to which story you believe and how much you should accept as the truth.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,
If anyone is ever going to find the LDM, they need to believe in them both

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

There are a lot of stories out there, beyond the two. You going to need to believe only the two, or all of them? If you are going to pick and choose, which ones will you throw out?

I know, and have known, some very intelligent Dutch Hunters. Some of them spent years researching/searching, and living in those mountains.

The very last thing I would ever imagine, is that I would have a better chance of finding the LDM than any of them. Maybe that's why I never bothered looking.

On the other hand, I know the LDM legends pretty good. As they go, I will stick with Bark and Ely's version.......with all of its warts.

Nice seeing you back to posting.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

They unchain you Randy and let you have time to actually post?

Thats nice, now back to work!

Take all the information post 1953 and disregard all information that has been culled from Jim Barks notes and Elys book.......

Say John Spangler holds those notes close to the vest and Ely never gets around to his LDM memoirs?

I would gather Storm becomes your best published source material along with various documents we have at our disposal. This changes every book and manuscript and fireside tale to a degree possibly.

If all the stories come from Waltz then it does not matter......it is the essence of thing you look for, not the differences. Whether Holmes knew Waltz, was given or stole the candlebox actually matters little. All that matters is the truth of Holmes clues and directions, regardless of their source. I believe we are coming up on 117 years and neither side has much to show for it.

Hard to put your money on a horse that will never finish the race, but honestly and with all due respect..........those horses aren't in the race anymore.

What we have is an enormous task of searching for the truth. I believe most of it is still there, its just not what most Dutch Hunters are looking for. Greg told me once that Dutch Hunters are only interested in the truths that fit into their own interpretations.

[djui5]

Randy,

There are a lot of stories out there, beyond the two. You going to need to believe only the two, or all of them? If you are going to pick and choose, which ones will you throw out?

Nice seeing you back to posting.

Take care,

Joe

Thanks Joe I'm just glad that project is over. Holy hell. Gotta go back in July but it won't be for long and I'll have a new boss this time. Things should go better.

See my post below for the answer to your question.

[djui5]

They unchain you Randy and let you have time to actually post?

Thats nice, now back to work!

If all the stories come from Waltz then it does not matter......it is the essence of things you look for, not the differences. Whether Holmes knew Waltz, was given or stole the candlebox actually matters little. All that matters is the truth of Holmes clues and directions, regardless of their source. I believe we are coming up on 117 years and neither side has much to show for it.

This is what I was getting at We've discussed it before on the phone I'm sure.

Greg told me once that Dutch Hunters are only interested in the truths that fit into their own interpretations.

Ain't that the truth

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

"Greg told me once that Dutch Hunters are only interested in the truths that fit into their own interpretations."

By definition, would that include Greg Davis?

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

No, Greg isn't a Dutch hunter. He's a historian

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

"No, Greg isn't a Dutch hunter. He's a historian".

I see. So in your opinion, Greg has never looked for the LDM on any of the many trips he has made into the mountains?

Do you believe that being a historian negates the possibility of someone being a Dutch Hunter? Tom Kollenborn is a historian. Does that mean he is not a Dutch Hunter? I could name a number of others, but I think you could as well.

If I were a Dutch Hunter, I believe I would become a "historian" and start collecting all of the history I could fit into my......collection. I would advertise my disinterest in actually searching for the LDM. That would be a very logical thing to do.

On the other hand, the history may very well be all that Greg has ever been interested in. I would take him at his word.

Take care,

Joe

[djui5]

Well see there in lies the complication. Greg is a historian. What would be the greatest historical find in this area? The LDM correct? So no, he doesn't hunt the LDM, but if it was found, or he found it, it would be the greatest find in Arizona's history.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

What scares me here, is that I can follow the circuitous path of your logic.

Have a nice night,

Joe