Twin Buttes Markings

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
That's a good question. Considering what the designs are, it would be too easy to assume they were all done in the same time period, excepting the date of course. Since the people who were talking to Tracy originally thought the markings were six to eight hundred years old, there might be some question as to their qualifications. I believe Tracy felt the Ironwood that had grown up thru all of the designs, except for the date, were of the same general age. If Tracy can remember where these folks said they were from, we might be able to get a copy of their conclusions.
Joe

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Joe
The people I talked to ( Ernie and I ) were from Northern Az Univ. in Flagstaff. We ran into them on the second or third trip Ernie had made there so it was in the mid 60's. At that time they were taking samples of the ironwood trees growing through the scraping to ringdate . I heard later that some of them were 350 years old, that would put them about at the time of the first Jesuits being in the area as you suggested. I may have been overlooking an importint clue all these years.
TH

PS
Joe

Has anyone ask for copys of the pictures you have ?
TH

[Joe Ribaudo]

Tracy,
I have had probably five or six requests, and three I sent unsolicited. All thanked me except for.....who was probably just annoyed. I am somewhat surprised that charlie has not sent me his e-mail address, as I was sure he would be interested.
You are not alone overlooking evidence for a long period. I, as well as most other Dutch Hunters, have a hard time accepting evidence that is not taking us to where we want to be. If not for that little quirk, the LDM would probably already have been found. I personaly don't believe the LDM will be found (as described) by anyone.
Twin Buttes is a part of history, assuming it has been authenticated as being done 150 to 350 years ago. The Stone Maps, as I have always believed, may very well be a hoax. If they are, it increases the chances that all the rest of the legend is also a hoax. The history is real and may be the only treasure left in the Superstitions. Those who mine that treasure have the best of it.

You and the rest of the old time Dutch Hunters are that history.

Joe

[S.C.]

Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe, Joe....

You of little faith. ... You of all people doubting the Stone Maps.... Tisk, tisk... I would have never thought... Well, in political science there is a term called "guilt by association" - just because one thing is suspect does not mean something else related to it is - but, perception makes it seem that it is... The validity - or non-validity - of the Stone Maps means nothing in comparison to the reality - or non-reality - of the LDM.

From what I know, I FIRMLY believe in it (the LDM). Mr. Jacob Waltz had something.

[Peter]

Joe

I am not quite sure how the Stone Maps being a hoax casts doubts on the remaining parts of the LDM history. If you folks knew the enormity of the body of evidence and the solid information available to the average Dutch Hunter you would spend a little more time reading old journals and letters
and a little less time worrying about The Horse of Santa Fe.

PS

I did not receive any pic from you concerning the Twin Buttes marking..in case that was me you thought was "annoyed".

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter and S.C.,
You have both voiced the same thought. Perhaps I do not have another horse in this race. If I am not as familiar with the legends and history surrounding this story as you are, I know we have little chance of finding anything of importance. I am more then certain that both of you are onto something momentous, but I have been unable to wrangle or sweet talk either of you into an invitation to visit your areas of interest. We have a great time looking in the wrong place and will have to settle for that. I have absolutly no clue (other then the Stone Maps) so if they are fake, we have nothing left to look for. I really enjoy the camping/cooking/hiking aspect of our trips, so I can at least be thankful for that.
Your friend and wannabe partner,
Joe

[S.C.]

Joe,

I certainly have no secret information regarding the location of the LDM that any diligent researcher could not come up with on their own. If you think our fellow forum member Peter has something secret, then I as well am interested in finding out what he might know....

You say if the Stone Maps are fakes, then you have nothing left.... What about the Waltz Drawing. And this Julia Thomas stuff you refer to? Those sound like you have something to me. With that stuff, do you REALLY still need the Stone Maps?

But, I will agree with you. We can all look all our lives and find nothing, but... we sure would have had lots of fun in doing so.

[Peter]

Joe

My metamorphasis as a Dutch Hunter took years of piecing clues together
and eliminating the obvious and not so obvious. No one ever took me by the scruff of the neck, pointed to a mountain and said "the mines there, now go find it".

In fact, quite the opposite happened. It was I who brought up a certain mountain to a veteran Dutch Hunter who then, realizing my other proclivities and interests, began to fill me in on some of the history of the area. This history simply confirmed what I already knew or suspected for the most part.

From what I have seen on the forum so far only one other person seems to be on the right track (other than the D.H. vets..and they know who they are !). I find it bemusing to see folks such as yourself cling to one set of clues when there is a wealth of information available (and I am not talking about these silly LDM books written by Storm, Corbin and their ilk).

Want to get serious with your search? Then research. Saves a lot of wear and tear on the feet.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C. and Peter,
It is indeed frustrating to have spent the last forty-four years putting all of my eggs in the Stone Map basket, so to speak, and have people with so much obvious time and meticulous research in LDM lore, basically pooh-pooh my ideas. I intend to trudge on with my insane notions to the last possible moment. I appreciate your advise and good wishs and will try to broaden my research to follow in your footsteps in the future. I believe I will be following in the best footsteps possible. As I have said, I have tremendous respect for your emmense knowledge and abilities. Sorry if I have sounded like a know-it-all in my past posts. I was just trying to milk you folks for all the information I could get.
Thanks,
Joe

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Joe

Even tho I am not a hard core Dutch Hunter I am very happy you got me on this forum. The information freely given on this board would fill several books and ,hopefully. will someday fill someones bank account with the Dutchmans gold.

Who has the right clues?? I am sure I don't I am planning a trip into West Boulder to take a last look for Harry's cave before I get to old to ride a horse About the only thing I can say is that having handled a bar of gold from the Superstition Mountains, " Thars gold in them thar hills". Whether the Dutchman had a mine or found a cashe is unimportaint---We all seem to be infected with gold fever

TLH

[Peter]

Joe

I cant say if any of your notions are any crazier than my own. I can say that the more knowledge one acquires on the LDM the better off one will be in understanding all the issues involved with the hunt for the lost mine.


If the hunt for the Dutchman simply involved a hunt for a covered over shaft and tunnel, I beleive the mine would have been found long ago, probably in the 1920s when certain Dutch Hunters were close to the gold ring...without the hoops that folks need to jump through today to get anything done in the wilderness. The problem of finding the shaft and tunnel today is the easy part...relative to other complications involved in uncovering the mine area.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,

If Jacob Waltz found his gold lying on the massacre grounds, moved the ore into the mountains and buried it, blind luck and a metal detector may be the only way to find it. No amount of research or notes will help us if that is what happened. Since so many Dutch Hunters with information unfiltered by time and tall stories failed to find a mine (which had to leave some sign of it's presence) it may not be a mine at all. I know that has little romance and does nothing to excite the imagination, but I believe, if people like Al Morrow, Chuck Aylor, Ed Piper, James Bark, Brownie Holmes and Chuck Ribaudo,........you should get the idea here, could not find it, one could logically conclude that there is no mine to be found.

It is unlikely that we will look at one thing, that has not felt the gaze of these men.

Other then my early trips with my uncle, I have never taken one step searching for the LDM. I have no faith that the ravine I have talked about searching will contain a mine. It has been searched many times by others, including Brownie Holmes. It is just possible that it may contain ore found and buried by the Dutchman. I am sure, that in your research (as well as others) that you have all found solid evidence that Waltz actually had a mine and have just not published the information yet.
Everything here is speculation and opinion from an uninformed mind, so I could be wrong.
Joe

[Peter]

Joe

You are of course, correct. If your theory about Waltz burying the Massacre Ground ore in the mountains is correct, then the search will be that much more difficult (as if it isnt hard enough).

Happily it is those notes, letters, manuscripts, maps, anecdotes and history of those who have gone before that satisfies this Dutch Hunter that the Waltz-Masscare-Ore theory is...well. only a theory, and hardly fact.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
Name just one verifiable fact that proves that Waltz had a mine. It is a fact that he had rich (hand picked?) ore. For the most part, we have nothing but stories. I admit I don't have the material you, and others have dug up on your own and received from each other over the years.
Like Lone Wolf, I do have a number of generations of family Dutch Hunters who have handed me down the stories of their own experiances in searching the Superstition Mountains. If you can't find the mine without finding the cache and you can't find the cache without finding the mine......
I know you are partial to the Joe Deering story. Let's assume for a moment, that you are Joe Deering. You find the mine, and spend a few days there. Now the story of the two soldiers is that there was a lot of the ore, just laying around on the ground. You have a burro with you. You know that you are going to need money to start work on this mine. How much ore are you going to load on that burro? What did you do with that ore Joe and why did you kill yourself having to work for a grubstake?
According to some, the soldiers received a minimum of three hundred and eighty-four dollars, for the pieces one of them pulled out of his pocket. They spent eighty-four dollars on two burros, camp gear and tools. Not much of a grubstake needed there. Deering was reported to have shown about five pounds of this ore to Chunning. Not much to haul out on a burro after spending a couple of days at the mine, but way more then the soldier pulled out of his pocket. Just how much was Deering expecting to make working at the Silver King for a few weeks? Big wages for muckers in those days?
I know you have way more to go on then the Deering, two soldiers story,
and you may need it all. We all know where Chunning ended up searching, and many Dutch Hunters have left that area behind them. Where is the six or seven mile long trail worn deeply into the rock in some places?
The Jacuzzi is calling me.
Joe

[Peter]

Joe

You are correct, of course. There will be no verifiable evidence of Waltz having a mine until the mine is uncovered and its discovery publicized.
An event that has not occured yet...and may never occur.

As has been pointed out to me by some people: it is not always a good thing to have a history of past associations concerning ones Dutch Hunting.
Ones thinking is almost always skewed by whatever information one gets from folks who have gone before...particuarly when one has personal relationships with these people and trusts their judgement. For example, lets say my brother has some information he shares with me while I also have some other information diametrically opposed to my relations info. Whose info would I be prone to trust?

Concerning Deering.

Joe Deering did not spend a "few days" at the mine site. I think in total he could not have spent more than a few hours there over a two day period.
From the location of his camp where he lost his burro to the mine area is probably a tad less than the 6-7 miles he thought it was, but the climb up to the old trail may have made it seem that distant. He would not spend the night at the mine area (neither would I), which means he would have had to reach the area, have little time to look around, then hike back to his camp. I also do not beleive his burro accompanied him to the mine site..it certainly could not get near the immediate area of the mine.

The old Deering trail (beleive it or not) still exists today. I know, because I walked it and I also have photos of it. It is very difficult to follow in some places. In many places it has ceased to exist altogether. While the trail (if you know the "trick") leads one into the mine area, the real fun then begins as one then understands the enormity of the problem of finding a covered over shaft(s) in that terrain.

To add to the Dutch Hunters fun...is the LDM and the Deering/Soldiers Mine one and the same??? The answer to that I simply do not know for sure.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
You seem to be trying to lessen the distance between the camp of Joe Deering and the mine. Good Idea! Remember that he found that trail a mile to a mile and a half from his camp and then followed it for six or seven miles. It's been a long time since anyone has claimed to have found that trail. It's good to know it is still there. I have asked about it more then once on this forum, without reply. You are talking a fourteen or fifteen mile round trip back to the mine (over God awful rough country), just to look around for a few minutes. The idea that an experienced prospector, looking for a lost mine, finds it and then returns the next day, (without his burro) is a little hard to swallow. Is there anyone on this forum who would not get that burro, not to mention his camp, as close to the mine as possible and then proceed to put as much ore on that animal as he could stumble out of the mountains with? Camping near his water source is not a factor, since he did make two fifteen mile round trips away from that source on two seperate days. Deering could carry five pounds in a sack by himself.
Who knew Chuning and by extension Deering, the best? My vote would be Jim Bark. Following Bark would be Brownie Holmes. Is it possible that both men lied concerning facts related to them by Chuning? Is it possible that Chunning lied to them? I would think it is not very likely he lied to Jim Bark. He may have lied to Brownie Holmes, but I don't think he did.
You have ignored some of the more pertinent points in my last post. Many writers have developed new stories to explain why Deering ended up dying in the Silver King. If you rewrite history, you need some verifiable facts or sources to make your version the accepted one. If you don't have those sources, most will take the word of the writers closest to the events in time. Ruth's entry into the Superstitions is a perfect example.
I believe that the trail in the story led Deering to a walled-up tunnel and two pits covered with debris. It is not said that he left the trail, rather that the trail took him to the site. That conforms to the story of the Two Soldiers. If you have the correct trail you will be lead directly to the pits and the walled up tunnel. It was found, according to the stories, twice by the accident of following this trail. What makes it so difficult when you are following the same trail by design? Perhaps Chuning, Bark and Holmes did know the approximate location they were looking for and purposely mislead us all. The evidence I have seen concerning these men makes it obvious to me they did that very thing. That is the reason the men who have searched your area before you, could not find the mine/cache. The only reason they did not find it, was because there was no mine to find and that includes the above mentioned three men.
Waltz sent everone on a wild goose chase by describing his mine and the area around it. The only one who knew the real truth was Julia Thomas and she won't talk any more.

You seem sure of your conclusions. Do you know for a fact you are in the right location, or only feel or sense it is the place?

"When places are actively sensed, the physical landscape becomes wedded to the landscape of the mind, to the roving imagination, and where the latter may lead is anybody's guess." Are you wedded to your "sense of place"?

Joe

[Peter]

Joe,

The Soldiers found the old trail by accident. Deering found the trail by design. Yes, he was trying to corral his burro when he accidentally stumbled upon the trail, but he was in the mountains for the express purpose of seeking this same trail out. The Soldiers logically followed the trail in the direction that they thought it would lead to the Pinal area.
Deering on the other hand, I beleive, was much more careful, realizing that this trail and every side trail, path, fork and "trick" needed examination. The idea that both the Soldiers and Deering followed ONE trail to a walled up tunnel is, I beleive, an erroneous one. The area where the gold was mined had (and has) several trails, intertwinded like cobwebs, logically following the contours of the terrain. The trick in this day and age is trying to figure out what leads where, and whether one is following an old Spanish, Mexican or Anglo trail, or one of more recent vintage...or perhaps one more ancient than any of the above.

Once he came to the tunnel area I beleive the shafts were not readily accessible, that he would have had to search some to find them and that it was no mean feat when he finally discovered them above the tunnel.

Your remarks on Bark and co. are most likely on target. I beleive Chunning had very good information from Deering, as did Bark by way of Chunning. Both men came close to the mine area, and both obscured the real area in the writings they left. I dont blame them, as I do the same every post I make on the forum..lol. Why didnt they find it? Well that goes back to the reason the mine hasnt been found all these years, and while some folks have speculated as to why this is so, none (on this forum at least) have touched upon what I beleive to be the real reason that the mine remains hidden.

Do I know for a fact that the mountain I beleive the mine to be on is THE mountain? Of course not. I can only make an educated guess whth the preponderance of the evidence that I have available. However, I will say this. To my mind its either there or nowhere, and I will never search anywhere else for it...but like I said..its a mighty big place and the mountain I am interested in has lots of peaks, canyons, hills, knolls, cliffs, ravines, caves, etc etc. I can spend a lifetime searching and come up empty. That still wont prove or disprove that the LDM is there.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
I understand your reasoning.

Do you have any theories as to why Deering had to go to work in the Silver King for a grubstake? Why would an experienced prospector not move his camp closer then seven to eight miles away from the mine he was seeking? Why would he not take his burro closer to the mine. As you know, you can get a burro all over the area at the end of your trail. Why would he only take out five pounds of ore, when he knew he would need money to bring in a larger outfit? Why wasn't five pounds of the richest ore ever seen enough to grubstake fifty or more prospectors at that period in time?
You have had to add some twists in that trail that did not come from the original sources. I do not remember stories of side trails or more then one trail coming in and probably the same trail going out in another direction. Has history been rewritten to fit a place in the mountains? Although Deering was looking for the mine, it was by chance alone that he found the trail the way he did. There are game trails that have been used in those mountains for a long as they and the game have existed. A well worn trail is nothing unusual. The Indians were the next to use those trails and then they were traveled by white men. A trail worn deeper then any other in the mountains only means it was used by more animals and for a longer period then most of the others. Water created the Grand Canyon, not iron shod hooves. Time is the only factor here.
Peter, many Dutch Hunters have come to the same conclusions that you have. They may not have had as many reasons, clues or pieces of evidence as you, but they came to the same place in the mountains. The evidence of their passing will be all around you. No man goes anywhere without leaving some evidence that he has touched the ground.
Collectively, they have all brought you to this particular place.
You have intimated that my thinking may have been "skewed" by my association with other Dutch Hunters and those who were in my family. Here are the facts: No man has spoken one word to me, that brought me to my place in the mountains. Not family, friends or other Dutch Hunters. I came to my conclusions on my own. No researcher in the field has sent me one piece of evidence that has moved me one foot towards or away from my conclusion. The same can be said of every author who has ever written on the subject. As far as I know, my conclusions match no one elses. That does not mean they are correct, but at least they are unique.
I used to believe in the Joe Deering story until I asked myself the questions I have asked you. I had no reasonable answers, and so far you have declined to give any of your own. They are really not questions that require any answer, as the questions are their own answers.

I might paraphrase a friend here. A lot of good Dutch Hunters have been ruined by the Joe Deering/John Chuning story.
Just trying to keep it real here,
Joe

[Peter]

<<Do you have any theories as to why Deering had to go to work in the Silver King for a grubstake?>>

Ever think that perhaps he continued to work at the Silver King because either a) he was waiting for a partnership agreement to expire in a month or so or b) he was waiting for a partner to show up. Both reasons are given in the original anecdotes. Perhaps they are true? Ever meet a man who simply likes to keep busy? I know several...all of whom I think are nuts...lol


<<Why would an experienced prospector not move his camp closer then seven to eight miles away from the mine he was seeking?>>

I can not comment on this in the forum. I am fairly certain why he wanted to keep some distance between him and that area. Bad vibes? Ghosts?

<<Why would he not take his burro closer to the mine. As you know, you can get a burro all over the area at the end of your trail.>>

I dont think he took the burro with him the first day he struck the trail. Once he realized the nuances of the terrain he decided not to return with the burro the 2nd day (if it was still located on his return to camp).

<<Why would he only take out five pounds of ore, when he knew he would need money to bring in a larger outfit?>>

I am not sure where you got this 5 lb figure from. I beleive it may have been considerably less

<< Why wasn't five pounds of the richest ore ever seen enough to grubstake fifty or more prospectors at that period in time? >>

See above. My understanding of Deerings actions revolve around waiting for either a partner to show up, or a partnership agreement to expire..NOT trying to muck for a grubstake.

Another thought. I keep coming back to John Chunning. There are still diggings in the mountains directly attributable to this man. Chunning was the fellow most closely associated with Deering. What would keep Chunning climbing up and down rope ladders on sheer cliffs for 20 years if he did not beleive Deering was telling him the truth? Did Deering lie to Chunning? Maybe. But it is clear to me that CHUNNING thought Deering was telling the truth.

If the Deering story by ITSELF was all I had to go on, then yes, you would be correct in your assumptions. Happily, it is just a small fraction of data I have compiled in my research. It is simply a piece in my own LDM jig saw puzzle...and a piece that seems to fit snugly into place.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
We seem to have our own private chat line going on here. Others are more then welcome to add to this conversation.
It is well known that Chuning told Jim Bark why Deering had to wait thirty days, but that dog doesn't hunt for me. Deering had more then likely been out of Colorado for at least two years when he went to work at the Silver King. Deering showed (according to Bark/Chuning) Jesse Brown and Chuning about five pounds of gold ore which John described as "quite rich. The gold in the different pieces was from split peas to coffee kernels in size." I will take a wild guess here and say that was a bit more then the soldier took out of his pocket. Assuming the legal angle might be true, Deering was a long way from Colorado and could have worked his find for the month just as easily as working in the Silver King. No one would have had any idea that he was working in the Superstitions. You are using the logic of today to try to explain actions that were taken in the late eighteen hundreds. No internet.......
Chuning did not climb " up and down rope ladders on sheer cliffs for 20 years" and Deering made no mention of having to do that.
As for the burro and his camp, Deering said the trail was wide and deep. He also said "I followed it six or seven miles and came to the worst place I ever saw. There was a tunnel and it had been walled up." The worst place and the tunnel are the same place. He made no other comments concerning the shape the trail was in. That means that he could have taken the burro as far as the tunnel.
Now maybe old Joe, while staring at all this gold laying around was considering the legal ramifications of his Colorado deal, but it does seem a little far fetched for that time period. Mr. Burro would have been braying all the way out of the mountains, complaining with each step, over the load he was carrying.
John Chuning and many others have made the area you are searching fit the story. They all had to make small changes and add things which were not there at the beginning. John did not start at your location nor did he end his search there. Jim Bark did not start nor end his search at that place. Brownie Holmes did not start nor end his search in your area. It is possible that you have found clues and evidence in your search that these men did not posses. They did not have the resources that you have at your disposal. Are the clues and evidence of the year 2003 better and from a more reliable source then from the time of the Dutchman? If so, you will surely be more successful then they were. Those men were not casual fans of the LDM. They all spent years searching for the mine and I don't mean an occasional weekend or week, like me. I don't for one minute think I can match their time or experiance, which is why I haven't spent any time looking for the LDM.
I accept the fact that you are in a better position and have more information on the LDM then I will ever have. Between the two of us, you are the only one who has any chance of finding a mine and I am happy to leave that to you. I only ask the questions I do, because of my doubting and inquisitive mind, and an inkling of where the cache might be, or once was, located. I will quit twisting your tale.
Joe

[Peter]

Hi Joe

I guess I will just agree to disagree with you on this one.

P

[Wiz]

Now maybe old Joe, while staring at all this gold laying around was considering the legal ramifications of his Colorado deal, but it does seem a little far fetched for that time period.

I have to disagree with you, Joe. There were and are men who are honest by nature. Assuming Deering to be one of these, it was probably a big stretch for him ethically just to take the approach of waiting until the thirty days were up, and he may have never considered working the mine in secret. This fits in nicely with the profile of a man who was industrious and took a temporary job at the Silver King just to keep busy for the month, and who spoke freely to Chunning whom he felt he could trust.

[Aurum]

xx

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Aurum

Interesting information-- I knew about the coke ovens and have been there several times I believe the town of Butte was on the north side of the river close to the mouth of Box canyon --about a mile and a hakf west of the north butte--the remains of several building were still there the last time I was in that area..
I assume you have been in contact with Mr Lambs family. In the early 70's Ernie Province and I bought the deeded land of the Quarter Circle U ranch from Joe Lamb--wonder if he was any relations???
LOL--at least SOMEONE knew about those damn carvings!! I was begining to think I had best give up drinking retroactively.
TLH

[Joe Ribaudo]

Peter,
Sometimes I even disagree with myself.

Wiz,
Your estimation of Joe Deering's character may be right on the mark. You may want to consider this in that estimation: Joe had located a rich mine (perhaps) during his agreement with a partner in Colorado. He removed some of the ore from the mine and brought it to the Silver King. If he was the type of man you have surmised, he would have been honor-bound to live up to his contract with his partner. As you suggest, such a man would not consider waiting thirty days to cut out the man who had made it possible for him to find the LDM. I believe he was a man of honor and good character, which is one of the reasons I don't believe he found the LDM at all. What happened to the five pounds or more of rich ore he had in his possesion? That kind of ore in a mining community would have been big news. If you read the coroner's inquest into the death of Joe Deering, you will find that two of the men testified they had known him for two years. It does not appear that he was new to the Silver King. It is also unlikely that he was a mucker, as he was standing on a raised plank when his accident occurred. That fact suggests that he had a job other then mucker, but it is possible.
If you come to the conclusion that he was at the Silver King or in the area of the mine for more then one year, then the grubstake story does not wash.
If anyone cares to comment on this, perhaps we should move this conversation to the Joe Deering portion of the forum.
Joe