Helen Corbin's Olbers Manifest

[starman]

Randy,

Quantum Physics, a bit.

Late generally used page 49 of a text and lines 1-49 to hide directionals. If the map is what I believe it is it begins at the Salt River close to Barranca Grande. It will end at Latitude N33 33.370
Longtitude W111 20.581
elevation: 3108.

Roy,

If you have found the truth regarding Atlantis then you should have no problem putting together how Jacob made it from South Africa to America. Posting a manifest would only generate scorn anyway. I will share this with you. The two young people who visited Jacob before he died were his children. Their names were Ada and Gerwig Waltzer.

Joe,

I cannot answer why others post. I am tasked to see if the library of Oz should be made public or destroyed. Late, Eldorado, Dog and Klondike did not have it in them to end this. I do.


We have a saying in our people that once the souls of those lost in the Superstitions have been returned to us the Superstitions will return to darkness. I believe it has.

Only a novice could stop this.


Martin Waltzer
Starman

[Oroblanco]

Starman wrote

Roy,

If you have found the truth regarding Atlantis then you should have no problem putting together how Jacob made it from South Africa to America. Posting a manifest would only generate scorn anyway. I will share this with you. The two young people who visited Jacob before he died were his children. Their names were Ada and Gerwig Waltzer.

I respectfully disagree, first that a ship manifest would either prove or disprove what you have just claimed not simply "generate scorn", and that the only linkage I can discern between Atlantis and how Jacob made it from Germany to America was that both made use of ships. We can't even be sure that the oceanic currents and trade winds patterns were the same 11,000 years ago, so the ships are about the only commonality. Without some kind of hard proof that Jacob even visited South Africa, words carry little weight of themselves. He did not list South Africa as his country of origin at any time, which would be very curious if that were his real origin.

Can you explain why Jacob signed his name "Waltz" if it were really Waltzer? Thank you in advance,
Roy

[ArizonaHiker]

This is my first post, so bear with me as I am somewhat new to all of this.

I was wondering since Starman claims to be a descendent of Jacob Waltz, and appears to have researched what he claims to be the geneology of his heritage, if he can name the sister that was in America prior to Jacob coming over from Prussia or Germany as it is now called?

Honestly I don't have a horse in this race as I have just hiked around the superstitions for exercise and the joy of hiking and never looked for this mine while out there. I find it odd that a number of people make huge claims to have found this or that or have a family tying them to the legend, but bring little to no substanciated proof to back up these claims.

All in all I have enjoyed the reading here and look forward to continuing reading the posts here.

Chris

[djui5]

Chris,
Have you found extensive info on Waltz's sister? I don't recall anyone knowing anything specific about her, but it's possible I forgot about it Send me a PM if you wish. BTW do you post on hikeaz.com too?

[ArizonaHiker]

Randy,

I don't have any information other then what is in Helen Corbin's book. I just wanted to see what info Starman might have on that if he is truly a descendent as he claims to be...obviously I am skeptical.

I have posted at hikeaz.com, but not to much. Working 2 jobs keeps me busy, so I tend to hike when I am not working instead of posting online, but it has been 110 degrees in Tucson, so think I will stick to this for now.

Chris

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chris,

I was thinking the same thing as Randy about your other forum interest.

Seems to me we had a discussion about an "Apache" ceremonial site you came across. If it was you, the information I provided came from the same source that, likely, gave Helen her information on the sister. If that's true, chances are pretty good that the information was false, much like a huge portion of her last book.

Once again, I want to make it clear that Helen was a wonderfully gifted writer and woman. I passed along the information I received, on the site, from the same source that gave much of that fictional information to her. I trusted that person as much as Helen and Bob did.

At this time, Bob Corbin has removed the book from further distribution. There are some copies that he could not recall, so eventually "The Bible....." will become very scarce. As you can see, there are still some people who hold honor above profit.

For anyone who has received bad information from me, I apologize. Many, many of us were taken in.

Take care,

Joe

[ArizonaHiker]

Hey Joe, your previous conversation was not with me unfortunately. It sounds like it would have been a very interesting conversation to have taken part in.

I have read alot of your posts and appreciate all of the information you pass on to newbies, or people like me who find interest in the history of the areas I have hiked.

Chris

[starman]

Arizona Hiker,

Don Shade wrote a book titled Esperanza. On the cover is the statement, "This is an anthology of the travels of man through the Valley of Illusions". The history of the Superstitions is a Valley of Illusions. The real question is why?

One illusion on top of another until even asking a question is impossible because the question is imbetted with assumptions that themselves are illusions. That is what lies at the heart of your question. An illusion.

Jacob Waltzer was the dutchman. He came to America from South Africa. His descendants still live there. His journey to Arizona was the adventure of a meloncholy man who lost the only woman he ever loved. In part he came to Arizona to protect and preserve. He also came to America to make amends for his inability to save his wife.

That is the truth. You and many others have been spun like tops and placed in a house of mirrors. Your illusions were created by some of the most honorable individuals to ever set foot in those mountains. The truth is in a small museum in South Africa.

Their work is not limited to the Superstitions but covers a significant amount of history in the Southwest.

Shade was an honorable man. He told the truth. He also created illusions. At least they were his own.

Martin Waltzer

[ArizonaHiker]

Starman,

I have not read Don Shade's book, but again I see no real facts to back up any of the statements you have made. I have seen and heard of alot of books being sold on the dramatic side of the legend, but based on very little fact and unsubstanciated proof. I am not claiming any other book is based strictly on fact, since in this forum alone I have seen a number of those facts debunked by some very astute researchers, but a number of books are presenting the evidence that the author had at their disposal at the time the book was written. Again, I have not read Don Shade, but the impression I have gathered from your message it is just as you stated an illusion and smoke and mirrors based on little fact of the legend, but I will not judge the book on the opinion I get of from you before reading it.

It seems to me that you have also been creating alot of illusions and smoke and mirrors based on little fact, but again I am not as well studied on the legend as many here. I would like to see some facts to back up your claims, which is why I asked the question I did. I have seen a great number of claims on this and other forums, but very little research from you to back these claims.

I would like to seem some supporting evidence for your claims to make your story, at least, some what believable.

Chris

[starman]

Arizona Hiker,

I am not making any claims and I am not selling any books. The truth is far more unbelievable than the efforts of any of the, how did late describe them, dreamweavers.

Don Shade wrote a great book. It is, in my opinion, the best book ever written on the Superstitions. He was a Gatekeeper but he zeroed in on more truths than anyone. At least he knew his rocks.

I have shared more with you than I should have. Proving to you who I am is simple. However it will give credence and truth to other things that are still active.

I have pointed you to a way. It is up to you to either stay in the illusions you know or consider a possible truth. The decision is yours.


Starman

[Jesse J. Feldman]

Starman,

Don Shade was a great man to those that knew him well. He was like a grandfather to me. We miss him very much. Though many of us do not see the mountains as Don did, we know that he firmly believed in his own search and his own philosophy (which was very deep and in the light of the truth). THIS IS WHAT COUNTS! Generally, I do not care if someones info is wrong or off center. I only care that someone sincerely believes in the story they tell. Hell, they might be right in the end. The fact is, to any of us, we welcome the truth, however that may be achieved.

Some people do not believe in the story that they are telling! That is a shame to all the others in this community. Therefore, you should either quit posting here or verify your story better than you have done. You seem to be a person of intelligence, but, at this point, I hope that no one has intentions of following your wild goose chase. If you are a "dream weaver," that is fine, but if you are here to give misinformation, then please go somewhere else. Right now, especially, we do not need to be bullshitted. I am sensitive to people who make up stories. I have always been this way - it is not something new, and I am not sorry about it. We see many in this community, many on this forum, who come and go whilst laying some fantastic lie. The trouble is, some can not seperate the wheat from the chaff, and are led down the wrong path. Back up your story or be gone!

Jesse

[Joe Ribaudo]

Starman,

IMHO, Jesse is 100% correct, including his opinion of Don Shade.

The real problem with people who MAKE UP stories, is that they end up luring people into the mountains based on nothing more than pure fiction. Now and then, those people end up dead or seriously injured. You folks, by whatever name you are using, give no thought to the damage you could be doing. It's purely a bit of fun for you.

None of the Ben Davis posts have a real reason for being placed here. I have asked many times.....Why are you here? I am convinced that boredom is the answer.

Since it appears you live and work in Germany, you are coming a long way to spin your nonsense. The company you work for (B.C.S.) has you listed as Martin Walzer, not Waltzer. Have you chosen to post as Waltzer to give your story more weight?

Like the Blindbowman, you have grown tiresome. No one cares where your twisted story will land next, NO ONE!

Joe Ribaudo

[starman]

Mr. Fieldman,

I apologize if my comments offended you. I have the upmost respect for Mr. Shade and as stated before I believe his book is the best one ever written about the Superstitions.

My posts were not intended to confuse or mis-lead anyone. Enough of that has been done in the past regardless of the motives of the individuals involved. And you are right this is a sensitive time and the feelings of people who have been hurt should be respected.

With that in mine I will be gone. Good luck in your search for the truth in those mountains.

Mr. Ribaudo,

I just noticed your post. I was here for the reasons I posted. Nothing more, and nothing less. The book is closed.

You appear to be an intelligent man. I could be wrong.

Starman
Martin Waltzer

[ArizonaHiker]

I don't know what happened to my previous post, so will attempt it again.

Joe and Jesse,
I was trying to walk that fine line of not disrespecting Starman to much, as I am new here and wanted to avoid coming off as another thorn in the side of this forum and those here. The way I see it, and I am a simplistic man, is that alot of you have put alot of boot soles on the ground throughout the Superstitions and spent countless hours, weeks, and years researching the truth of this legend, and for someone who has no ground time and performed a tenth, at best, of your research is blatantly disrespectful. Being new I am not as well versused on this legend as anyone else, but I can clearly see a fraud when one presents themselves. I would hate to see someone beginning like me into the legend and be derailed from the start by someone feeding false information into the legend. It is clear to me now why this legend seems to grow more feet by the day and lead off in multiple directions.

Thanks to those of you that contribute the many good leads on this legend and provide a newbie a great site to learn from the best I have seen out there.

Chris

[Joe Ribaudo]

Chris,

There have been a few of us here, over the last few years, who have tried to bring some honest facts into the legends that surround the Superstition Mountains. I don't think any of us wanted to disprove the various stories that have been circulated since the death of Jacob Waltz, rather we wanted to find out if there were any provable facts that supported them.

I neither expected nor wanted some of the facts we found to turn out to be true. There is little doubt that some people will consider what we have done to be harmful to the LDM legend. Those who took some of these outright lies and printed them in their books are the folks who were really harmed.

Each of us agonized over making some of these truths public, but in the end we did the right thing.

The stories that are left are more than enough.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Arizona Hiker,

I am not making any claims and I am not selling any books. The truth is far more unbelievable than the efforts of any of the, how did late describe them, dreamweavers.

Don Shade wrote a great book. It is, in my opinion, the best book ever written on the Superstitions. He was a Gatekeeper but he zeroed in on more truths than anyone. At least he knew his rocks.

I have shared more with you than I should have. Proving to you who I am is simple. However it will give credence and truth to other things that are still active.

I have pointed you to a way. It is up to you to either stay in the illusions you know or consider a possible truth. The decision is yours.


Starman

For the rest of you pretenders out there, you know who you are, these are the kinds of posts which cause your foot to be firmly emplanted in your mouth. In this particular case, it would require a competent surgeon to remove said foot from Starman's pie hole.

The problem is, when you include an actual person in your game, who happens to have close friends who knew him very well, you end up looking like a complete fool.
For most of us, that's no surprise.

Joe Ribaudo

[starman]

Mr. Ribaudo,

Is this an example of your western hospitality that is to shoot a man in the back as he exits the Saloon?

Out of respect for Mr. Feldman`s sensitivites I was happy to leave his tavern. Don Shade was a fine man and he had a number of relationships. Are you so naive to believe I did not know of his relationship with Mr. Feldman.

Are you so intelligent you understood my gatekeeper comment? I think not.

If Mr. Feldman wishes to let you run wild with your accusations and slurs that is his business. You have been allowed to call people liars and worse with impunity. That is a shame.

On another subject the individual you continue to accuse of providing false information has more integrity in his little finger than you have ever possessed.

Mr. Feldman,

I apologize to you again for posting on your site. My interests in the Superstitions will end shortly.


Martin Waltzer
Starman

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mr. Walzer, (according to your employer)

I believe the answer to most of your questions is......Yes, except for what you claim about Jesse. That would be a loud NO!

If you did not wish to offend Jesse, you simply needed to reply with a private message. Since we have no "saloon" doors here to hit you in the ass on your way out, I figured a parting shot would work just as well.

Consider this post an addendum...so to speak.

I'm sure, if Jesse is upset about my posts, he will let me know. We have never been shy about speaking our minds to each other.

As to my charges against all of your fellow "gatekeepers" who have posted here, I have all of the email's to prove what I have said. That would be email's from both sides of the conversations.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[starman]

Mr. Ribaudo,

You have been allowed to run wild. That is the responsibility of the barkeep.

I came here for one reason and one reason only. That decision has been made, and it was the right one.

Enjoy your illusions it is the only thing you have left, you could have been left with so much more.

The door goes both ways.

Starman
Martin Waltzer

[starman]

Mr. Ribaudo,

I am not a Gatekeeper. I have told you this before.

The individual referenced is the one you continually accuse of providing mis-leading information to authors. A fine man.

Starman

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mr. Walzman,

That's very interesting.......Proving once again, how vast your knowledge of all things Dutchman/Superstition Mountains is. One can't help but marvel at how you came to acquire such inside information.

"I am not a gatekeeper. I am a private contractor. When in the states I have an office in Queen Creek. The Eagle has landed. Great People."

Really! I would have thought you would work out of someplace like Sunnyvale, while in the States. "The Red Coats Are Coming"........or is that the Blue Coats?

Joe Ribaudo

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
I have to agree with Jesse on this issue. While I do not have any desire to add gas to a fire, and many false tales can be harmless and entertaining, in this case many people read what is posted in these treasure forums, and take what is said at face value. Too often these persons end up in serious trouble or dead, trying to find the treasure pointed out by satellite, from clues which are pure fiction or other arcane sources, posted for the public to swallow by persons with no experience in the Superstition mountains or very little. It is akin to telling folks that you will suffer no harm whatsoever from drinking cyanide <in my opinion>, to be leading people off on wild goose chases into some of the most dangerous country there is.

I did not get a chance to meet you in person Jesse but hope to remedy that at the next rendezvous; I intended to last Oct but at each moment when I saw you, someone else had your ear and I did not wish to intrude.

To the fellows who find entertainment in posting fiction and false information for the public to swallow, there are laws about fraud and liabilities when someone ends up injured; something to consider before pressing a falsehood on the public. A great many of the persons who read our words, do not actively post (perhaps never) but take what they read seriously. The next time you are tempted to post another falsehood, ask yourself how you would feel if someone ended up dead because they followed out your information into the Superstitions? Or how would you feel should the police come knocking on your door, to find out if you were the one that gave out false information that got someone killed.

Just my opinion, but I do hope that people will try to stick to the truth, have some kind of evidence to support it when they make statements of "fact" and so on. It is not just good morals to stick to the truth. It is walking a fine line with the laws to be playing loose with the the facts. Ask Clifford Irving how his fake "autobiography of Howard Hughes" worked out for him. <hint, he was a guest of the state, so to speak>
Roy

[klondike]

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

The two of you should have taken the time to read Esperanza. Or if you have read it taken the time to understand it. On page 60 is a letter that attests that The Dutchman`s last name was Waltzer. On page 148 is a clue that even the clueless can appreciate.

The library of Oz no longer exists. It`s secrets are safe in South Africa.

At the end of Esperanza there is a statement that bears repeating:

"There will come a time/ I know/when people will take delight in one another/ when each will be a star to the other/and when each will listen to his fellow as to music."

The Children of Calalus were the star people, they would have shared that star with you.

May the Stars keep each of you safe.

It is time to go home.

Klondike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Klondike,

It's a very familiar tune that we have heard from you many times. It has never been music to my ears, but it has made me smile.

I have read Esperanza many times now. Don Shade was obviously an intelligent man, well read and with a vivid imagination. Many Dutch Hunters are made from the same mold.

Like you, his ruminations (best word for his book) were fun to read, but many were less than believable. On the other hand, there are always some impressionable folks who will take them as gospel. I think I have a pretty good imagination, but not that good.

Jesse who, unlike you, actually knew Don quite well, probably gave us the perfect synopsis of the man....Short but sweet.

Have a good trip away from the LDM Forum, but I suspect we will hear from you again. You are still trying to accomplish......something here, but none of us know exactly what that might be.

Joe Ribaudo

[Somehiker]

"There will come a time/ I know/when people will take delight in one another/ when each will be a star to the other/and when each will listen to his fellow as to music."

If Don Shade had been able to attend a Rendezvous,he would have witnessed such a time.

Regards:SH.