I came across "The Secret of Guadalupe" from Coronado's Children by J. Frank Dobie. It refers to William Colum (Old Ben) Sublett and a deep crevass that held placer gold. Someone did find the Old Ben Placer, but did of a broken neck that night when drunken he was thrown by his horse.
The story tells of someone following Old Ben from Odessa to Pecos and along the rails on the west side of the Pecos River, north for approximately 25 miles when the trail was lost. Three days later Old Ben was discovered traveling south along the rails with a pouch full of placer.
How far can a wagon with horses or mules travel in a day? Assume 8 hours and 16 hours of travel...
The only direction that could be traveled from the west side of the Pecos River would be north or south along the river, or out westward which I suspect is more likely. Also, considering the poor quality or lack of bridges, the direction of travel would be along and not cross rivers. Where would that put Old Ben?
I came across an interesting Indian face. From Kent, TX take 2424 north around Apache Mountains. On the east side of the mountains, a few hundred yards west of 2424 and ~4 miles past Hurds Pass Draw is a 100+ foot ridge (nearly east/west shadow) that has a distinctive Indian Head. I cannot tell if this is an open or closed mouth (beginning or end of a trail).
How would this location compare with a long day's distance from the Pecos River? Would I have to be more easterly to match Old Ben's day's ride?
As Mitchell said, the reason the mines have not been found is that something is wrong with the clues. Old Ben's placer is reported to be in the Guadalupe Mountains which are further to the northwest and expected beyond a three day round trip to the point on the Pecos River where his trail was lost. (It is anticipated that the current railroad tracks should be the same path as the earlier railroad tracks.) Assume one day of prospecting and one day ride to and from the railroad tracks.
Got you thinking hard? Aslo, folowing upstream from the railroad point without crossing many, if any, streams, where would that put you?
I love to focus my investigations prior to actually going into an area. This is target for 2005 if nothing changes from my current lifestyle. Anyone near this area?
Another Treasure
Another Treasure
Charlie
Charlie,
Before striking out on the details of a story by Dobie, you would do well to check out the details from another source. Or, possibly from the sources Dobie used if they are available in the Dobie collections in Texas. J. Frank Dobie was a great preserver of lore, and he is a good read. But, he was more interested in the generalities of a story, and in preserving the tales, and recording life style(s) than in absolute fidelity to fact.
Before striking out on the details of a story by Dobie, you would do well to check out the details from another source. Or, possibly from the sources Dobie used if they are available in the Dobie collections in Texas. J. Frank Dobie was a great preserver of lore, and he is a good read. But, he was more interested in the generalities of a story, and in preserving the tales, and recording life style(s) than in absolute fidelity to fact.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
"Another Mans Treasure"
Charlie,
This site is called the Lost Dutchman Goldmine for a reason. We have often veered off the subject, but not often into Texas. Perhaps you are the "lone" voice for this particular treasure but it is possible that others are interested. What do the other members have to say on this subject? Perhaps Ron will consider renaming the site "Coronado's Children".
You are a knowledgeable and well traveled newbee indeed.
Rosebud,
Where have you been. I think you summed up J. Frank Dobie rather well.
Joe Ribaudo
This site is called the Lost Dutchman Goldmine for a reason. We have often veered off the subject, but not often into Texas. Perhaps you are the "lone" voice for this particular treasure but it is possible that others are interested. What do the other members have to say on this subject? Perhaps Ron will consider renaming the site "Coronado's Children".
You are a knowledgeable and well traveled newbee indeed.Rosebud,
Where have you been. I think you summed up J. Frank Dobie rather well.
Joe Ribaudo
Thanks
I will remain silent for awhile on this subject to see if others are interested in the shift of topics or diversion. (My reason for posting a new topic.)
I have to finish reading Lore before going to Dubie. However, I am interested in preserving history and lore. (No pun intended.) It improves a lot of things when you know the reasons behind something.
That is why I asked about the day's traveling distance. I have no grasp on such previously common knowledge.
How few people know of manual "post hole diggers" in these days of the power driven hole digger.
I value the knowledgeable responses that I have received from the LDM postings.
I have to finish reading Lore before going to Dubie. However, I am interested in preserving history and lore. (No pun intended.) It improves a lot of things when you know the reasons behind something.
That is why I asked about the day's traveling distance. I have no grasp on such previously common knowledge.
How few people know of manual "post hole diggers" in these days of the power driven hole digger.
I value the knowledgeable responses that I have received from the LDM postings.
Charlie
Charlie,
To the best of my understanding the distance traveled by wagon back in the late 1800s ranged from 6 to 20 miles a day. This is based on pioneer accounts for travel in a “covered wagon”. The distance depended on the condition of the horses/mules/oxen and the terrain. Six miles (sometimes less) was recorded for the Lost Meeks Wagon Train in Oregon, which is associated with the Lost Blue Bucket Mine. But, that was cross-country in loaded wagons over some very rough terrain and little water. On good road with a lighter load and good animals one could probably do close to 25 (30?) miles.
A quick Google search shows that the University of Texas at Austin has the main Dobie collection, with a smaller collection at Southwest Texas State University, San Marcos, Texas.
If you want a fair look at Dobie’s sources and likely reliability read the notes for the chapter on The Secret of the Guadalupes in Coronado’s Children. My copy shows that for that chapter he relied on a variety of resources including interviews conducted by someone else, and at least one article he had never actually seen.
Joe,
Hi.
To the best of my understanding the distance traveled by wagon back in the late 1800s ranged from 6 to 20 miles a day. This is based on pioneer accounts for travel in a “covered wagon”. The distance depended on the condition of the horses/mules/oxen and the terrain. Six miles (sometimes less) was recorded for the Lost Meeks Wagon Train in Oregon, which is associated with the Lost Blue Bucket Mine. But, that was cross-country in loaded wagons over some very rough terrain and little water. On good road with a lighter load and good animals one could probably do close to 25 (30?) miles.
A quick Google search shows that the University of Texas at Austin has the main Dobie collection, with a smaller collection at Southwest Texas State University, San Marcos, Texas.
If you want a fair look at Dobie’s sources and likely reliability read the notes for the chapter on The Secret of the Guadalupes in Coronado’s Children. My copy shows that for that chapter he relied on a variety of resources including interviews conducted by someone else, and at least one article he had never actually seen.
Joe,
Hi.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Indians
Rosebud,
Nice post. The Comanche and Apache were also a factor. They would follow a wagon train for weeks, waiting for the opportunity to steal stock, women or children and an occasonal easy murder. The Indians often dictated the pace of a wagon train.
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Joe
Nice post. The Comanche and Apache were also a factor. They would follow a wagon train for weeks, waiting for the opportunity to steal stock, women or children and an occasonal easy murder. The Indians often dictated the pace of a wagon train.
Glad to see you back on the forum.
Joe