I am not sure I should post anymore, as after my last posting the discussion seemed to shut down for a week. It is not my intent to stifle discussion. I thought that I might try one last posting. It seems to me that there is a wild card in play, and that is what happened to the mines Waltz claimed in the Prescott area? Waltz shows up in Phoenix essentially broke in 1868 (as I recall). By 1870 his place is a beehive of activity, he builds a new house and makes other improvements in this period – the late 1860s/early 1870s. Many think that the money to do this came from his finding the mine. During the rest of his life he lives modestly, but certainly has some wealth. Some of this wealth is in gold.
The three mines he had filed on up in Prescott seem to have been solid mines producing much gold. Now selling lode-mining claims can be an involved business – not always, but sometimes -- such as when a major operator is trying to buy up a bunch of small claims. Could it be that it took a couple of years for Waltz to get the money for his claims sorted out, and that is where the money came from? Could his gold have come from the Bradshaws? Or, maybe even California? Does anyone know what happened to Waltz’s claims in Prescott? Newspaper accounts seem to indicate that the Big Rebel, the General Grant and the Gross Lode became good paying mines. This does not mean that Waltz’s claims had value, but they very well could have been worth good bucks.
It would seem to me that until we know about his mines in the Bradshaws this is an open question. After all, he could have been going in the Superstitions trying to chase down rumors of lost mines like Edwards and later Deering, and decided to use some site as a cache for his remaining gold from some other place. He could have found an old mine and tried to work it, but that does not mean that he found a rich mine. If he had money from the sale of his Prescott mines, and gold from those mines, and he cached his gold in the Superstitions, and he searched the mountains for rumored lost mines finding nothing more than an almost worked out mine which he tried to work would this not also fit the story?
Waltz's mines
Rosebud,
I do not think your previous posting had to do with the lack of activity. Many probably were busy with other things. I am sure that is the case with three or four I know of. I myself have been busy with work and had little free time to do anything. Please do not let your post today be your last.
But, you bring up a good poitnt It could be that the "wealth" Waltz had in the early 1870s was from money finally coming through for selling out his Prescott claims. Or that he had gold from those that he cached and later "withdrew" from. But, one or the other makes sense. Not both. It seems if he had ore - why would he display proverty when he first came to Phoenix? Seems the ore came later - as if he found it after his arrival to Phoenix. Now... the final settlement of the Prescott cliams could be true. But, the gold ore comes up - Waltz obviously had lots of it.
Good point. And worthy of dicussion.
Seems the ore testing ruled out the Vulture and Goldfield area mines. Maybe that testing could be expanded. Perhaps it is still possible to track down ore samples from the mines Waltz was involved with in Prescott and compare those to the results of the matchbox ore or that one small sample still left. It was pretty easy to find Vulture ore... Maybe the same could be done if one were to find the locations of those other claims. Would some other organization have additional info besides the claims themselves - such as local maps indicating claim locations?
I do not think your previous posting had to do with the lack of activity. Many probably were busy with other things. I am sure that is the case with three or four I know of. I myself have been busy with work and had little free time to do anything. Please do not let your post today be your last.
But, you bring up a good poitnt It could be that the "wealth" Waltz had in the early 1870s was from money finally coming through for selling out his Prescott claims. Or that he had gold from those that he cached and later "withdrew" from. But, one or the other makes sense. Not both. It seems if he had ore - why would he display proverty when he first came to Phoenix? Seems the ore came later - as if he found it after his arrival to Phoenix. Now... the final settlement of the Prescott cliams could be true. But, the gold ore comes up - Waltz obviously had lots of it.
Good point. And worthy of dicussion.
Seems the ore testing ruled out the Vulture and Goldfield area mines. Maybe that testing could be expanded. Perhaps it is still possible to track down ore samples from the mines Waltz was involved with in Prescott and compare those to the results of the matchbox ore or that one small sample still left. It was pretty easy to find Vulture ore... Maybe the same could be done if one were to find the locations of those other claims. Would some other organization have additional info besides the claims themselves - such as local maps indicating claim locations?
Rosebud,
No, you're right, it's all your fault nobody posted and how dare you express thoughts about the soldiers!
I'm kidding of course. Everything you said in your Deering post was quite valid, and the thought about the "immortality of youth" is certainly a wrinkle no one has brought up before.
But now you're coming dangerously close to suggesting that - (gasp) - there might not be an LDM at all! I've thought about this nasty little possibility too. It sure would take the fun out of things!
No, you're right, it's all your fault nobody posted and how dare you express thoughts about the soldiers!
I'm kidding of course. Everything you said in your Deering post was quite valid, and the thought about the "immortality of youth" is certainly a wrinkle no one has brought up before.
But now you're coming dangerously close to suggesting that - (gasp) - there might not be an LDM at all! I've thought about this nasty little possibility too. It sure would take the fun out of things!
Mine Schmine Whatever
There may be no Lost Dutchman Mine in the Superstitions, but there is a Peralta family mine, if not eight mines. Not to mention the other family that mined nearby.
If there is a LDM, I believe it was a Spanish family mine before the Dutchman's mine. If there is not a LDM, I do not care. There are sufficient Spanish trail markers to indicate multiple mine locations.
I was interested in the lost Spanish mines because there are many more with a higher probability of finding one.
If one of the lost Spanish mines is covered by three feet of dirt instead of 5 feet plus of dirt, it must be the Dutchman's. Therefore, follow the Spanish trail markers and check for the amount of coverage over the suspected mine.
Beside, half the fun is in the chase, the excitement of potential discovery and then the frustration of paying the government their dues.
It will be fun to hear of anyone else's successes, too.
If there is a LDM, I believe it was a Spanish family mine before the Dutchman's mine. If there is not a LDM, I do not care. There are sufficient Spanish trail markers to indicate multiple mine locations.
I was interested in the lost Spanish mines because there are many more with a higher probability of finding one.
If one of the lost Spanish mines is covered by three feet of dirt instead of 5 feet plus of dirt, it must be the Dutchman's. Therefore, follow the Spanish trail markers and check for the amount of coverage over the suspected mine.
Beside, half the fun is in the chase, the excitement of potential discovery and then the frustration of paying the government their dues.
It will be fun to hear of anyone else's successes, too.
Charlie
Waltz's mines
Rosebud,
You have a very valid idea, for the ore from the Bradshaws, I believe it is mesothermal, like Kochera's and Dutchman ore; however reread the ore testing in Glover's book and the information on the ore on the old postings on this site. To me the fact of the high probability of Dutchman ore and Kochera's ore being related or coming from the same mine and both alleged to be found in the Superstitions, would make one have to really reach to put the mine anywhere else. Two samples completely from two different sources and two different time periods being found in two different places , but both being in the Superstitions , presents quite a burden of proof for the ore coming from anywhere else.
You have a very valid idea, for the ore from the Bradshaws, I believe it is mesothermal, like Kochera's and Dutchman ore; however reread the ore testing in Glover's book and the information on the ore on the old postings on this site. To me the fact of the high probability of Dutchman ore and Kochera's ore being related or coming from the same mine and both alleged to be found in the Superstitions, would make one have to really reach to put the mine anywhere else. Two samples completely from two different sources and two different time periods being found in two different places , but both being in the Superstitions , presents quite a burden of proof for the ore coming from anywhere else.
Walt'z mines
I think there is abit of confusion here. Mesothermal does only not refer to the geologic period when something is deposited. There are basically three types of ore, Mesothermal, Epithermal, Hypothermal. Each has there own characteristics. The test was not only based on whether one ore was mesothermal or not. It was an electron scanning microscope test which does not identify the gold itself , but compares the constituents that make up the ore , besides the gold. Aurum , maybe I misunderstood what you were saying, but it seems like you were inferring that the ore was tested only on the basis of whether it was one type of quartz or another.
Waltz's mines
Aurum,
We are both reading off the same page,so to speak page. I believe we had this conversation in person. Glad to know your part of the forum.
We are both reading off the same page,so to speak page. I believe we had this conversation in person. Glad to know your part of the forum.