Thomas/Petrasch/Holmes thoughts
Thomas/Petrasch/Holmes thoughts
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Joe Ribaudo
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Faint Echos
Zentull,
You have said many of the things that I have voiced in previous discussions. Not much of that was well received by the more knowledgeable (than I) members of the forum. All that you say makes perfect sense to me, which will make your comments immediately suspect to most of the forum. This all means you are running in bad mental company and should seek professional help without delay. My therapist is completely booked with trying to straighten me out, but may be able to recommend a competent brain mechanic in your area.
Although your post will not be well received by most of the members, it is unlikely that any rational rebuttal will be forthcoming. These topics seem to have emotional ties to one side or the other.
Nice post.
Joe Ribaudo
You have said many of the things that I have voiced in previous discussions. Not much of that was well received by the more knowledgeable (than I) members of the forum. All that you say makes perfect sense to me, which will make your comments immediately suspect to most of the forum. This all means you are running in bad mental company and should seek professional help without delay. My therapist is completely booked with trying to straighten me out, but may be able to recommend a competent brain mechanic in your area.
Although your post will not be well received by most of the members, it is unlikely that any rational rebuttal will be forthcoming. These topics seem to have emotional ties to one side or the other.
Nice post.
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Well!!!
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get me!
Caution (like an old friend) should always be kept close at hand.
I am a big fan of Apache history, as well as just about every other kind of history. I never took that as a bad trait before your last post. You just never know when your little idiosyncrasies will rub someone the wrong way. The noose over the sleeping bag really was a little over the top there. As for the dynamite and shooting, it was never a good idea to camp between the Piper/Jones camps. What were you thinking? Have to go now, as I seem to have lost my car. 
Joe
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to get me!
Caution (like an old friend) should always be kept close at hand.
I am a big fan of Apache history, as well as just about every other kind of history. I never took that as a bad trait before your last post. You just never know when your little idiosyncrasies will rub someone the wrong way. The noose over the sleeping bag really was a little over the top there.
As for the dynamite and shooting, it was never a good idea to camp between the Piper/Jones camps. What were you thinking? Have to go now, as I seem to have lost my car. Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Apr 22, 2003 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zentull,
Good to have new ideas, a different take on things. Not to take sides in this century old dispute, just a few thoughts.
RE: “Thomas's purse which supposedly includes Waltzs naturalization papers, a Map and a deed for the mine from Peralta are stolen. The map possibly turns up in the form as the Holmes map later. Interestingly this map is Denied by Holmes. This map also appears to be one of the sketches remembered by Rheinhart."
If you implying that it was Dick Holmes who ended up with Waltz’s papers I would like to know your source on that one. My understanding is that it was thought Godfried Petrasch ended up with and later destroyed/lost Waltz’s papers.
Re: "The other papers which would clearly be at odds with Holmes story are never recovered or seen again.”
What other papers?
Re: “There are Peraltas mining in the Bradshaws at the same time as Waltz(1864). One of these would end up in Phoenix(1870s) byway of Wickenburg(1870). Could Waltz have meant they originated from sonora as a reference, and was misunderstood?”
Interesting idea, especially when one considers that according to the 1870 census there were Peraltas living on Waltz’s land. Did Waltz maybe hear rumors in the Bradshaws and then when he sets up his place in Phoenix and has a good site invites people to put up there in hopes of getting more info on the stories he heard in the Bradshaws? Pure speculation, but hearing a bit of info and then trying to get close to people who might know more is not uncommon in many things.
Re: “Could have the money that Peralta mentions in the suicide note been the gold given over by Waltz to secure rights to the mine?”
Another very interesting take on things. But, if that was the case and Waltz did have legal ownership of the mine, whether he bought it from Peralta or filed on it himself there would have been a record of it. And to my knowledge no such record has ever been found.
Re: "Also, the Grijalva info is tainted. Here is the one mention of Waltz's severe poverty and its by a neighbor who had a relative that was convicted of killing a friend on Waltzs property."
Another out of the box look at things. Great. But, there is no evidence that I know of that the Grijalva family who were neighbors of Waltz’s were related to the Grijalva involved in the shooting at Waltz’s. Also, was Grijalva ever actually convicted? I thought he made a clean get-away.
Re: "Thomas's religious fervor later does not mean she was crazy then, but may have resulted from her obsession with the mine."
First, was Julia “crazy”, or did she just have visions that she believed were part of reality? Did she become obsessed with it or just bask in the notoriety it brought her? Guess it depends on your definition. Truth is we have no idea when she started to be "different". There are certainly some indications that she may have been a bit “different” earlier than her religious period. They are small things, but one still wonders. The act of going in the Superstitions in summer is a strange choice – true there is a case that can be made for it, but it is still something curious; her reported behavior on that trip where she spent the night alone on a rock firing over and over at non-existent rattlesnakes is also suggestive – even though again a case can be made to maybe explain it; her reported behavior Waltz’s last night of tossing powder into a fireplace or stove to make colored smoke seems not quite right; then there is the matter of leaving to find a doctor when Waltz was on his last and asking someone (reportedly Holmes and Roberts) to sit with Waltz – Why would she leave Waltz? Why not send one or both of the two men to fetch the doctor? Would you want to leaving a dying friend if you did not have to?
Good to have new ideas, a different take on things. Not to take sides in this century old dispute, just a few thoughts.
RE: “Thomas's purse which supposedly includes Waltzs naturalization papers, a Map and a deed for the mine from Peralta are stolen. The map possibly turns up in the form as the Holmes map later. Interestingly this map is Denied by Holmes. This map also appears to be one of the sketches remembered by Rheinhart."
If you implying that it was Dick Holmes who ended up with Waltz’s papers I would like to know your source on that one. My understanding is that it was thought Godfried Petrasch ended up with and later destroyed/lost Waltz’s papers.
Re: "The other papers which would clearly be at odds with Holmes story are never recovered or seen again.”
What other papers?
Re: “There are Peraltas mining in the Bradshaws at the same time as Waltz(1864). One of these would end up in Phoenix(1870s) byway of Wickenburg(1870). Could Waltz have meant they originated from sonora as a reference, and was misunderstood?”
Interesting idea, especially when one considers that according to the 1870 census there were Peraltas living on Waltz’s land. Did Waltz maybe hear rumors in the Bradshaws and then when he sets up his place in Phoenix and has a good site invites people to put up there in hopes of getting more info on the stories he heard in the Bradshaws? Pure speculation, but hearing a bit of info and then trying to get close to people who might know more is not uncommon in many things.
Re: “Could have the money that Peralta mentions in the suicide note been the gold given over by Waltz to secure rights to the mine?”
Another very interesting take on things. But, if that was the case and Waltz did have legal ownership of the mine, whether he bought it from Peralta or filed on it himself there would have been a record of it. And to my knowledge no such record has ever been found.
Re: "Also, the Grijalva info is tainted. Here is the one mention of Waltz's severe poverty and its by a neighbor who had a relative that was convicted of killing a friend on Waltzs property."
Another out of the box look at things. Great. But, there is no evidence that I know of that the Grijalva family who were neighbors of Waltz’s were related to the Grijalva involved in the shooting at Waltz’s. Also, was Grijalva ever actually convicted? I thought he made a clean get-away.
Re: "Thomas's religious fervor later does not mean she was crazy then, but may have resulted from her obsession with the mine."
First, was Julia “crazy”, or did she just have visions that she believed were part of reality? Did she become obsessed with it or just bask in the notoriety it brought her? Guess it depends on your definition. Truth is we have no idea when she started to be "different". There are certainly some indications that she may have been a bit “different” earlier than her religious period. They are small things, but one still wonders. The act of going in the Superstitions in summer is a strange choice – true there is a case that can be made for it, but it is still something curious; her reported behavior on that trip where she spent the night alone on a rock firing over and over at non-existent rattlesnakes is also suggestive – even though again a case can be made to maybe explain it; her reported behavior Waltz’s last night of tossing powder into a fireplace or stove to make colored smoke seems not quite right; then there is the matter of leaving to find a doctor when Waltz was on his last and asking someone (reportedly Holmes and Roberts) to sit with Waltz – Why would she leave Waltz? Why not send one or both of the two men to fetch the doctor? Would you want to leaving a dying friend if you did not have to?
<<The guys that know all the Apache lore there is to know aren't far behind. I am sure they lose their car in the parking lot pretty frequently. >>
Phew.....
I guess that leaves me out. I imagine I know about 1/1000th of Apache lore there is to know. I dont lose my car much either...HOWEVER..I do have a tendency to misplace my car keys. Does that count?
Phew.....
I guess that leaves me out. I imagine I know about 1/1000th of Apache lore there is to know. I dont lose my car much either...HOWEVER..I do have a tendency to misplace my car keys. Does that count?
Hunting in "The Wilderness"
Arum,
It's legal to hunt in the Wilderness area.
It's legal to hunt in the Wilderness area.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Holmes' Map?
Zentull and Company,
Simple logic might indicate that Holmes had no map, much less three different routes to Waltz's mine, all supplied by the Dutchman himself. If he had anything from Waltz, whatsoever, he would never have waited until after Julia and her gang of fourty whatever, made there search, to begin his. Now perhaps he believed that he was so rich with the gold that was in the chest under Waltz's bed, placed there by one (1) man, that he assumed he would be in no need for the remainder of his life, and could afford to let Julia have first crack at the richest mine on the face of the earth. If you think that would be a reasoable course of action, there is another dog in this particular hunt that you might want to consider. 
With all of this first hand information, why did the Holmes Family search the entire range for a mine that they, at the very least, should have known the general location of? Kind of reminds one of the John Chuning search over the years.
My memory is not so bad yet, that I can't remember saying this before, but it's not a bad set of questions.
Joe
Simple logic might indicate that Holmes had no map, much less three different routes to Waltz's mine, all supplied by the Dutchman himself. If he had anything from Waltz, whatsoever, he would never have waited until after Julia and her gang of fourty whatever, made there search, to begin his. Now perhaps he believed that he was so rich with the gold that was in the chest under Waltz's bed, placed there by one (1) man, that he assumed he would be in no need for the remainder of his life, and could afford to let Julia have first crack at the richest mine on the face of the earth.
If you think that would be a reasoable course of action, there is another dog in this particular hunt that you might want to consider. With all of this first hand information, why did the Holmes Family search the entire range for a mine that they, at the very least, should have known the general location of? Kind of reminds one of the John Chuning search over the years.My memory is not so bad yet, that I can't remember saying this before, but it's not a bad set of questions.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Grijalva
For anyone interested, the Grijalva family name has a little more story to it than just the slight mention in LDM history. In 1850 a ten year old boy, named Merejildo Grijalva was kidnapped by Chiricahua Apaches. As was there custom, they raised the boy as one of there own. He spent the next eight years learning the ways of the Apache, including all the training to become an Apache warrior. In 1858, at the age of eighteen, he escaped and made it safely to an American fort. By 1866 he was serving as an interpreter and guide for the army. He became one of General Crook's chief of scouts, and was reputed to be one of Crook's most trusted men.
Due to his eight years of training at the hands of the Apache, he was uniquely qualified to track and fight the Apaches in there own back yard.
In 1873 Cochise rode in to Fort Bowie. Grijalva was there to greet him. He offered his hand to the greatest of Apache Chiefs, but Cochise would not take it. He stated he would not shake hands with him until he had whipped him. The Apache all knew Grijalva and considered him the worst kind of traitor. Cochise dismounted, hit him a few times with his whip, embraced him and started talking over old times. There are more than a few stories about Merejildo (nicknamed Mary) Grijalva.
This information can be found in one of Peter's, and my own, favorite books; Once They Moved Like The Wind, by David Roberts.
Joe Ribaudo
Due to his eight years of training at the hands of the Apache, he was uniquely qualified to track and fight the Apaches in there own back yard.
In 1873 Cochise rode in to Fort Bowie. Grijalva was there to greet him. He offered his hand to the greatest of Apache Chiefs, but Cochise would not take it. He stated he would not shake hands with him until he had whipped him. The Apache all knew Grijalva and considered him the worst kind of traitor. Cochise dismounted, hit him a few times with his whip, embraced him and started talking over old times. There are more than a few stories about Merejildo (nicknamed Mary) Grijalva.
This information can be found in one of Peter's, and my own, favorite books; Once They Moved Like The Wind, by David Roberts.
Joe Ribaudo
I was reading some of Eve Ball's books, and I think it was in "Indeh" that the story of Geronimo's death is told. Evidently, Geronimo talked a lot on the night he died of pneumonia. For what it's worth, this has a bearing on Waltz's ability or inability to tell Dick Holmes the long story he supposedly told. I've always felt that such a long speech was unlikely for someone dying of a respiritory disease; now I'm not so sure.
Just some passing thoughts.
Just some passing thoughts.
Eve Ball reported that Asa Daklugie (the last surviving son of the Nednhi chief Juh) and Eugene Chihuahua were present when Goyathklay died at Ft Sill hospital. He was dying from pneumonia and was reported to fade in and out of delirium as the end approached. At times he was quite lucid and able to recall long-ago events. At other times simply incoherent.
Does this have a bearing on Waltz's supposed deathbed confession? Who can say. Course, I have always thought that men were a more hardy breed in those days...and thus would indeed be more likely to blurt out a "deathbed" confession when it was their time to ride the ghost pony to the happy place...
Does this have a bearing on Waltz's supposed deathbed confession? Who can say. Course, I have always thought that men were a more hardy breed in those days...and thus would indeed be more likely to blurt out a "deathbed" confession when it was their time to ride the ghost pony to the happy place...
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Joe Ribaudo
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What did he say?
Hello Wiz,
Pneumonia is not actually a specific disease but is a term used to describe a number of different types of inflamation of the lungs. Why that is important, is because it makes it difficult to generalize the effects on every individual. Pneumonia is often caused by other serious illness or disease which lowers the immune systems efficiency and allows the pneumonia to develop, and in older or very young people (especially in the old days) caused death. Since the pneumonia was present for a long period of time prior to causing death, if that was the actual cause, and considering Waltz's age and weakened condition, it is unlikely he was doing much talking on the day of his death. Anything is possible, but at that point it is also very possible he was confused and delirious.
Peter,
You are, of course, correct. I doubt Waltz was ever a physical match for Geronimo (at any age), so it might be tough to compare their final moments dying of pneumonia. I have seen many men and women die with pneumonia. I don't ever recall much (if any) coherent conversation on their last day.
Joe Ribaudo
Pneumonia is not actually a specific disease but is a term used to describe a number of different types of inflamation of the lungs. Why that is important, is because it makes it difficult to generalize the effects on every individual. Pneumonia is often caused by other serious illness or disease which lowers the immune systems efficiency and allows the pneumonia to develop, and in older or very young people (especially in the old days) caused death. Since the pneumonia was present for a long period of time prior to causing death, if that was the actual cause, and considering Waltz's age and weakened condition, it is unlikely he was doing much talking on the day of his death. Anything is possible, but at that point it is also very possible he was confused and delirious.
Peter,
You are, of course, correct. I doubt Waltz was ever a physical match for Geronimo (at any age), so it might be tough to compare their final moments dying of pneumonia. I have seen many men and women die with pneumonia. I don't ever recall much (if any) coherent conversation on their last day.
Joe Ribaudo
Lucidity From Illness
There is no comparison between people responding to illness and individual lucidity.
My wife works as a pharmacy tech in a hospital and I have listened to her comments.
Disease in itself from infections do not cause a loss of lucidity unless it affects the mind. Ill nesses of the lungs may cause problems in holding long, conversations without resting and pausing for a breathe. However, fevers that accompany infections could cause loss of lucidity.
For people with a mind racing between several topics and having a need to tell a lot of information in a deathbed confession, the mind may rush from idea to idea in an attempt to cover everything. The resulting conversation heard by the listeners could be random blurbs that make little sense. Excited people often are told to "slow down and take a breath" to let the mouth catch up with the mind.
Some people talk in paraphrases when the are in groups that they believe have common background.
Remeber the repeated jokes that were told by the old folks in the home. 5 Ha, ha. If you heard the joke, you know it! If not, huh?!
No generalities!
My wife works as a pharmacy tech in a hospital and I have listened to her comments.
Disease in itself from infections do not cause a loss of lucidity unless it affects the mind. Ill nesses of the lungs may cause problems in holding long, conversations without resting and pausing for a breathe. However, fevers that accompany infections could cause loss of lucidity.
For people with a mind racing between several topics and having a need to tell a lot of information in a deathbed confession, the mind may rush from idea to idea in an attempt to cover everything. The resulting conversation heard by the listeners could be random blurbs that make little sense. Excited people often are told to "slow down and take a breath" to let the mouth catch up with the mind.
Some people talk in paraphrases when the are in groups that they believe have common background.
Remeber the repeated jokes that were told by the old folks in the home. 5 Ha, ha. If you heard the joke, you know it! If not, huh?!
No generalities!
Charlie
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Joe Ribaudo
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Death by drowning
Charlie,
Those who pass away due to pneumonia, without other factors, such as heart failure or massive strokes, usually drown in there own fluids. This does not happen suddenly. The lungs keep working until there is no room for air intake and they are full of fluid. The slow removal of oxygen does not make for clear thinking or the inclination to talk. The entire focus is on getting some air to breathe. If you have ever been held or forced to stay under water for longer than you felt comfortable, you know what I mean about focusing on that next breath. When your lungs are full of fluid, you never make it to the surface but the lungs keep trying to breathe. Trust me, that is the only thing you are thinking about, assuming you can think at all. As you struggle for that breath, a small amount of air forces it's way in to the top of the lungs. It's enough to get you to the next effort and nothing more. Eventually the lack of sufficient oxygen renders you unconscious and you die.
Perhaps Waltz did not die from pneumonia. He may have had a heart attack before the final stages of pneumonia could take him. The description of his death seems to indicate otherwise. We will never know.
The point of all this speculation is to try to determine whether Waltz gave any directions to Holmes just before he died. If you decide he did, where will you start you own search? If Waltz gave Holmes any information, it left him with no idea where the mine was located. The family searched the entire range. No one has ever found the mine using the words of Waltz, Holmes or any other man or woman. If the location is ever found, I doubt it will be by following the words of anyone.
Of course, I could be wrong so I will keep reading. The rest of you should follow my advise, and stop reading anything relating to the LDM.
Steve,
Welcome to the LDM forum. Jump right in. The perspective from England is always interesting. No need to be bashful, no one else is.
Joe Ribaudo
Those who pass away due to pneumonia, without other factors, such as heart failure or massive strokes, usually drown in there own fluids. This does not happen suddenly. The lungs keep working until there is no room for air intake and they are full of fluid. The slow removal of oxygen does not make for clear thinking or the inclination to talk. The entire focus is on getting some air to breathe. If you have ever been held or forced to stay under water for longer than you felt comfortable, you know what I mean about focusing on that next breath. When your lungs are full of fluid, you never make it to the surface but the lungs keep trying to breathe. Trust me, that is the only thing you are thinking about, assuming you can think at all. As you struggle for that breath, a small amount of air forces it's way in to the top of the lungs. It's enough to get you to the next effort and nothing more. Eventually the lack of sufficient oxygen renders you unconscious and you die.
Perhaps Waltz did not die from pneumonia. He may have had a heart attack before the final stages of pneumonia could take him. The description of his death seems to indicate otherwise. We will never know.
The point of all this speculation is to try to determine whether Waltz gave any directions to Holmes just before he died. If you decide he did, where will you start you own search? If Waltz gave Holmes any information, it left him with no idea where the mine was located. The family searched the entire range. No one has ever found the mine using the words of Waltz, Holmes or any other man or woman. If the location is ever found, I doubt it will be by following the words of anyone.
Of course, I could be wrong so I will keep reading.
The rest of you should follow my advise, and stop reading anything relating to the LDM. Steve,
Welcome to the LDM forum. Jump right in. The perspective from England is always interesting. No need to be bashful, no one else is.
Joe Ribaudo