Joe,
I don't remember ever saying that the maps led me north of the Salt River. Please refer to what was said if I eluded to that , and I will explain my position on the stone maps. Although I feel they are a hoax, that doesn't mean they are. There was a time I was interested in another area north of the Salt, but it had nothing to do with the stone maps. I have said that if they were legitimate , I believe they put you north of the Gila River , not the Salt.
If anything gels on my excavation this summer , I will look to starting this fall. There is no way I can describe the experience in working with the government on this. Although none of us may ever discover the mine, the most one can hope for is to add something concrete to history in their search, and if they would get out of my way I might be able to do that.
The Stone Maps
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Joe Ribaudo
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Wrong Map!
Hi Ron,
You are, of course, correct. It was the Fish Map that put you in the Sierra Anchas, not the Stone Maps.
I don't envy you on your dealings with the powers that be. It is no easy task you have hitched up to.
Good luck,
Joe
You are, of course, correct. It was the Fish Map that put you in the Sierra Anchas, not the Stone Maps.
I don't envy you on your dealings with the powers that be. It is no easy task you have hitched up to.
Good luck,
Joe
Stone Maps
Ron, I would think the Noss family could understand what you are trying to deal with at this time. Big Brother eventually had to go through the motions of granting someone a permit. The sad part, is that it will more than likely be the only one. You know how Uncle Sam hates to share when he "thinks" something belongs to him entirely. Dec. 31,1983 sealed that issue. If they stall long enough, maybe you will just go away. Like some of the other problems they ignore. Kind of a "Catch 22" situation. It sucks, but all you can do is play their game.
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.
stonemaps
Terry,
I know this has nothing to do with the stone maps, but since your in Strawberry, jusy thought that I'd mention that we will not be in Pine this summer do to the total unwillingness of the Forest Service to let us operate in closure, where we would be of great value on the forest rather than off it. So once again we are detered from our path, but be assured not stopped . There is next summer for our business in Pine, and we're hoping to start the excavation this fall.
I know this has nothing to do with the stone maps, but since your in Strawberry, jusy thought that I'd mention that we will not be in Pine this summer do to the total unwillingness of the Forest Service to let us operate in closure, where we would be of great value on the forest rather than off it. So once again we are detered from our path, but be assured not stopped . There is next summer for our business in Pine, and we're hoping to start the excavation this fall.
Jesuit Treasure of the Superstitions
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Last edited by azmula on Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Echo
Azmula,
Sounds a lot like what I have been saying for quite a while now. Nice article.
Joe
Sounds a lot like what I have been saying for quite a while now. Nice article.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Peter,
You are "somewhat sceptical" of the Stone Maps, no matter what they are pointing out. Azmula is correct concerning the maps showing mines as well as "Jesuit treasure". It is unlikely, IMHO, that he will go into much detail. It would be a mistake if he did.
Joe
You are "somewhat sceptical" of the Stone Maps, no matter what they are pointing out. Azmula is correct concerning the maps showing mines as well as "Jesuit treasure". It is unlikely, IMHO, that he will go into much detail. It would be a mistake if he did.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Oct 17, 2003 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All skepticism aside, Azmula has my heartfelt thanks for actually posting something substantial. Keep up the good work, and maybe the moribund brain juices of the rest of us will start to circulate again, and we can actually get back to serious discussion of the whole LDM topic. I think if anyone can present valid, serious Stone Map information, it would be Azmula.
Joe,
I remain sceptical of the maps, and unless someone konks me on the head with some ore or a bagful of Church loot I will remain sceptical. Nonetheless, I try to keep an open mind when it comes to this stuff, one is never to old or smart (or dum... in my case) to learn.
Wiz,
Lets hope the forum stays focused on what the forum is all about: Treasure in the Superstitions in general and the LDM in particular. I for one am weary of the petty bickering, and while I find folks like Camper G interesting, (and what would Dutch Hunting be without its colorful array of "characters"?) it would also be nice to have some serious discussions about the mine from time to time.
I remain sceptical of the maps, and unless someone konks me on the head with some ore or a bagful of Church loot I will remain sceptical. Nonetheless, I try to keep an open mind when it comes to this stuff, one is never to old or smart (or dum... in my case) to learn.
Wiz,
Lets hope the forum stays focused on what the forum is all about: Treasure in the Superstitions in general and the LDM in particular. I for one am weary of the petty bickering, and while I find folks like Camper G interesting, (and what would Dutch Hunting be without its colorful array of "characters"?) it would also be nice to have some serious discussions about the mine from time to time.
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Joe Ribaudo
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<<The Stone Maps can convice you by themselves, but you may need a guide to show you the way. >>
Maybe so. But this is all dependent upon the interpretive skill (or luck) of said guide. After all the different theories and interpretations I have seen over the years regarding all things LDM, I take everything I see with a grain of salt or two....as we all should.
Maybe so. But this is all dependent upon the interpretive skill (or luck) of said guide. After all the different theories and interpretations I have seen over the years regarding all things LDM, I take everything I see with a grain of salt or two....as we all should.
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Joe Ribaudo
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I am a big fan of salt. I am not a big fan of interpretations."Maybe so. But this is all dependent upon the interpretive skill (or luck) of said guide. After all the different theories and interpretations I have seen over the years regarding all things LDM, I take everything I see with a grain of salt or two....as we all should."
Joe
<< I am not a big fan of interpretations. >>
Joe,
Exactly. The problem for us today is that no matter how well-founded the logic in putting the clues together, it is still dependent on one's own individual interpretation of said clues. This goes for the Stone Maps, the Bark Notes, anecdotes from lifetime Dutch Hunters...and what have you.
We as Dutch Hunters simply put what we beleive to be valid in our own files and try to hash things out the best we can. The WORSE thing that someone can do is discard evidence simply because it doesnt fit his neat preconceived notion of where the mine (or is it a cache?) is.
P
Joe,
Exactly. The problem for us today is that no matter how well-founded the logic in putting the clues together, it is still dependent on one's own individual interpretation of said clues. This goes for the Stone Maps, the Bark Notes, anecdotes from lifetime Dutch Hunters...and what have you.
We as Dutch Hunters simply put what we beleive to be valid in our own files and try to hash things out the best we can. The WORSE thing that someone can do is discard evidence simply because it doesnt fit his neat preconceived notion of where the mine (or is it a cache?) is.
P
Interpretations vs. Facts
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Last edited by azmula on Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AZ,
Well said. However, no matter how much one reads, studies and does the legwork. No matter how correct their sources..primary, secondary or tertiary. And no matter how well intentioned, educated or versed in all the lore of the mountains, it will still take someone to produce ore or loot to be "right".
P
PS And if someone does show up on the 6 o'clock news with a bagful of ore and full disclosure of how and where they got it, then in my humble opinion...they are out of their minds.
Well said. However, no matter how much one reads, studies and does the legwork. No matter how correct their sources..primary, secondary or tertiary. And no matter how well intentioned, educated or versed in all the lore of the mountains, it will still take someone to produce ore or loot to be "right".
P
PS And if someone does show up on the 6 o'clock news with a bagful of ore and full disclosure of how and where they got it, then in my humble opinion...they are out of their minds.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Finding Ore
[Peter]
"Well said. However, no matter how much one reads, studies and does the legwork. No matter how correct their sources..primary, secondary or tertiary. And no matter how well intentioned, educated or versed in all the lore of the mountains, it will still take someone to produce ore or loot to be 'right'."
The Stone Maps do not require "ore or loot" to be proven "right". I have already found more than enough evidence to know they are factually "right" and the only question now is, are they a hoax? Finding the Jesuit Treasure or the mines that are shown on the maps will only prove they were not a hoax. The Stone Maps are not a story or a legend but an artifact. Any story or legend that is attached to them is pure speculation. Interesting that you used "tertiary" as meaning your third source since we are (basically) talking about some rocks. You are a "smart cookie".
Respectfully,
Joe
"Well said. However, no matter how much one reads, studies and does the legwork. No matter how correct their sources..primary, secondary or tertiary. And no matter how well intentioned, educated or versed in all the lore of the mountains, it will still take someone to produce ore or loot to be 'right'."
The Stone Maps do not require "ore or loot" to be proven "right". I have already found more than enough evidence to know they are factually "right" and the only question now is, are they a hoax? Finding the Jesuit Treasure or the mines that are shown on the maps will only prove they were not a hoax. The Stone Maps are not a story or a legend but an artifact. Any story or legend that is attached to them is pure speculation. Interesting that you used "tertiary" as meaning your third source since we are (basically) talking about some rocks. You are a "smart cookie".
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Who Knows the Truth?
If I were going to ask one person to give me his opinion on the authenticity of the Stone Maps, I think I would ask Tom Kollenborn. For some reason, I feel that he knows something about the maps. Perhaps someone can persuade him to make some comments. If not on the trail maps, than just on the horse and the priest maps. Since I have never had a conversation with him, perhaps he will still talk to me. 
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Back to the Stone Maps
rgm,
My team member don't like my talking on the forum either. They may be right about that.
Why do you think the cross might overide a "direction measurement"? Do you think the "D" means degrees?
I assume you believe that it is important to know where the Stone Maps were buried. If, as Azmula believes, the were in the celler of a church in Mexico, what would the place they were alleged to have been found have to do with the maps? It seems unlikely that the maps were made in different eras. If you don't believe it matters, why waste time looking? Do you still need verification that you are in the right place?
There are caves in the Superstitions that have not seen a pick or metal detector.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
My team member don't like my talking on the forum either. They may be right about that.
Why do you think the cross might overide a "direction measurement"? Do you think the "D" means degrees?
I assume you believe that it is important to know where the Stone Maps were buried. If, as Azmula believes, the were in the celler of a church in Mexico, what would the place they were alleged to have been found have to do with the maps? It seems unlikely that the maps were made in different eras. If you don't believe it matters, why waste time looking? Do you still need verification that you are in the right place?
There are caves in the Superstitions that have not seen a pick or metal detector.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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Stone Map Knowledge?
Wiz,
Thank you for your reply. As you know, I believe every post deserves some kind of a reply and, of course that includes yours. You are wrong when you say, you have nothing to say. I am sure you have some kind of opinion on anything that concerns the Superstitions. That input is what keeps the conversations going. What I say to you is only my opinion (usually) and I have stated that on many ocassions. I have also said, "I could, of course, be wrong".
While I agree that the final resting place was not in Mexico, I have a problem with the "locater" maps being found with the "trail" maps.
What is the purpose of them all being together, no matter where that location is?
As I have said before, I don't believe the horse and the priest maps are legitimate. There is another clue, not easy to find, that points to the author of the horse map. I have seen it hinted at in a book, but don't recall which one right now. No name was given, but I found a rather telling clue on my own. I still believe Tom Kollenborn has some information on this subject. It is also possible that Kenworthy knew something concerning those two stones.
You should know, that you are no less "versed" than anyone else on the Stone Maps. While some of us may claim to know more about them than others, I believe that is very unlikely. That is, of course, leaving out the horse map. While Azmula has done a tremendous amount of research that is beyond the resources of most of us, he is yet to offer a verifiable source for any of his conclusions. So far, it is just an intriguing story based on an interesting theory. I assume we will have to wait for his book to see him reference sources. For me, it will need to be verifiable documentation rather than what someone has told him.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Thank you for your reply. As you know, I believe every post deserves some kind of a reply and, of course that includes yours. You are wrong when you say, you have nothing to say. I am sure you have some kind of opinion on anything that concerns the Superstitions. That input is what keeps the conversations going. What I say to you is only my opinion (usually) and I have stated that on many ocassions. I have also said, "I could, of course, be wrong".
While I agree that the final resting place was not in Mexico, I have a problem with the "locater" maps being found with the "trail" maps.
What is the purpose of them all being together, no matter where that location is?
As I have said before, I don't believe the horse and the priest maps are legitimate. There is another clue, not easy to find, that points to the author of the horse map. I have seen it hinted at in a book, but don't recall which one right now. No name was given, but I found a rather telling clue on my own. I still believe Tom Kollenborn has some information on this subject. It is also possible that Kenworthy knew something concerning those two stones.
You should know, that you are no less "versed" than anyone else on the Stone Maps. While some of us may claim to know more about them than others, I believe that is very unlikely. That is, of course, leaving out the horse map. While Azmula has done a tremendous amount of research that is beyond the resources of most of us, he is yet to offer a verifiable source for any of his conclusions. So far, it is just an intriguing story based on an interesting theory. I assume we will have to wait for his book to see him reference sources. For me, it will need to be verifiable documentation rather than what someone has told him.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
We would like to know the meaning of most every mark on the map. AsI assume you believe that it is important to know where the Stone Maps were buried. If, as Azmula believes, the were in the celler of a church in Mexico, what would the place they were alleged to have been found have to do with the maps? It seems unlikely that the maps were made in different eras. If you don't believe it matters, why waste time looking? Do you still need verification that you are in the right place?
wiz said, considering the difficulty of making each mark, nothing is there
by happenstance. The marks I do not know are the squiggle above the
big hole, the various dots around the map, the D or A on the knife. The omega I'm not sure of.
If anyone has an idea about the squiggle I'm all ears
Joe, you talk a lot, will you be in the mountains this winter?
I don't need to know where the maps were buried but I would like to know. It could verify the distance measurement contained in the D.
Harry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Talk or Walk?
Harry,
At this point I talk way more than I walk, but I have spent my time on the ground in the Superstitions. I know I have been on trails that few modern-day Dutch Hunters know exist. After forty-odd years as a Supes fan, I think I have earned the right to talk. If you think I talk too much, just bypass my posts. Somehow I doubt that will happen.
I will be in the mountains this year.
If you are still trying to figure out all of the things you have asked about, IMHO, you are completely in the dark. I don't intend to demean your efforts because I have no idea where you are searching.
I believe that the knife may have been added to the map. If so, anyone trying to figure out what those items that may have been added mean, would be wasting their time. I would love to tell you what all those things mean, but.....
I think I have brought my share of new information and new stories to this forum. Why don't you tell us how you arrived here and what you know that has not been in someones book already? I have the old Barry Storm cardboard covered stapled together book and I have not missed many important or even "useless" books since then. I am sure we are all looking forward to your own stories. We have all heard the old ones, more than once.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
At this point I talk way more than I walk, but I have spent my time on the ground in the Superstitions. I know I have been on trails that few modern-day Dutch Hunters know exist. After forty-odd years as a Supes fan, I think I have earned the right to talk. If you think I talk too much, just bypass my posts. Somehow I doubt that will happen.
I will be in the mountains this year.
If you are still trying to figure out all of the things you have asked about, IMHO, you are completely in the dark. I don't intend to demean your efforts because I have no idea where you are searching.
I believe that the knife may have been added to the map. If so, anyone trying to figure out what those items that may have been added mean, would be wasting their time. I would love to tell you what all those things mean, but.....
I think I have brought my share of new information and new stories to this forum. Why don't you tell us how you arrived here and what you know that has not been in someones book already? I have the old Barry Storm cardboard covered stapled together book and I have not missed many important or even "useless" books since then. I am sure we are all looking forward to your own stories. We have all heard the old ones, more than once.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I love this!
We have Azmula, Joe, and Harry, all hot on the trail and on the verge of solving the maps, and each feels the other is way off course. I have to suspect some off-line talk has been going on, since you guys seem to have an idea where each other's areas are, and I don't know where any of you are looking for stone-map stuff.
Being a fan of research, I have to say Azmula is looking very good here. I know, though, that Harry has given this a lot of time and thought, and has a very talented team. So I wouldn't bet against him. Joe, I don't really know anything about your search so I can't comment.
But this is getting exciting, and hopefully soon one of you guys will be posting a "I found it, and here's the details" type of post. Good luck to all of you!
We have Azmula, Joe, and Harry, all hot on the trail and on the verge of solving the maps, and each feels the other is way off course. I have to suspect some off-line talk has been going on, since you guys seem to have an idea where each other's areas are, and I don't know where any of you are looking for stone-map stuff.
Being a fan of research, I have to say Azmula is looking very good here. I know, though, that Harry has given this a lot of time and thought, and has a very talented team. So I wouldn't bet against him. Joe, I don't really know anything about your search so I can't comment.
But this is getting exciting, and hopefully soon one of you guys will be posting a "I found it, and here's the details" type of post. Good luck to all of you!