Wiz,
It is obvious that you are correct. Azmulla has interpretated the Stone Maps correctly. Finding what the "heart" symbolizes is one of the final steps.
[Azmula]
"The “Heart” Stone Map is the last map in the Stone Map Group to be deciphered. It is necessary to follow all of the other stones maps and clues to find the “Heart”. This map is very complex and incorporates all of the coding techniques that we have discussed. The “Heart” symbol is a symbol of ownership by the King of Spain or in this case the Church (the Jesuits were merely the caretakers). "
Joe:
Whether it is a symbol of Church "ownership" (as you know) could be debated.
It is possible that many of the answers to this puzzle have been hidden in Church records and cellers. If that is so, Azmula is on the right track. I don't know what track Harry is on. I have just been pounding around like a blind dog out there, so I know I will need a great deal of luck to find anything before the others, but it is hard to change my stripes this late in my life. I wish you all good luck.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
The Stone Maps
Aw Joe,
You bail out so early! After calling me ignorant too. We will invite
you to the "Eat Crow" dinner in May as an honorary guest. Of course it
is yet to be determined who gets the crow, maybe all of us.
The kicker is, it isn't certain to me there is something out there to find but
we are set for a fun Arizona winter. We would share it with all if we could.
What could be better than playing with the worlds foremost treasure
legend with good companions and a legitimate chance to succeed.
Finding is legal. We'll deal with the other part later. Why deal with
that when the odds of success are so very low.
Harry
You bail out so early! After calling me ignorant too. We will invite
you to the "Eat Crow" dinner in May as an honorary guest. Of course it
is yet to be determined who gets the crow, maybe all of us.
The kicker is, it isn't certain to me there is something out there to find but
we are set for a fun Arizona winter. We would share it with all if we could.
What could be better than playing with the worlds foremost treasure
legend with good companions and a legitimate chance to succeed.
Finding is legal. We'll deal with the other part later. Why deal with
that when the odds of success are so very low.
Harry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Bailing Out?
Harry,
Do you consider my saying "good Luck" to mean I am bailing out? I don't think I called you ignorant, but have no wish to argue the point with you.
The things you mentioned that you did not know about the Stone Maps is telling for me. The same thing goes for some of the things that Azmula has said. I accept that you both may be stringing us along, so perhaps you are digging as I write.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Do you consider my saying "good Luck" to mean I am bailing out? I don't think I called you ignorant, but have no wish to argue the point with you.
The things you mentioned that you did not know about the Stone Maps is telling for me. The same thing goes for some of the things that Azmula has said. I accept that you both may be stringing us along, so perhaps you are digging as I write.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Well Joe.
At least we know who is walking the talk and who is talking the walk.
We still invite you to the "Eat Crow" dinner in May. Who knows, we may
be toasting Azmula. He seems pretty confident.
Others are welcome to the "Eat Crow" dinner. If interested let me know.
If it doesn't look like it will be worth your time I'll say so. For it to be worth
your time there needs to be worthwhile and verifiable new information.
Pretty pictures would be nice too.
Anyone else that would like to show pictures or tell stories of his season's
accomplishments would be welcome. A book release would be a nice
announcement too if anyone would have one ready to go at that time.
Harry
At least we know who is walking the talk and who is talking the walk.
We still invite you to the "Eat Crow" dinner in May. Who knows, we may
be toasting Azmula. He seems pretty confident.
Others are welcome to the "Eat Crow" dinner. If interested let me know.
If it doesn't look like it will be worth your time I'll say so. For it to be worth
your time there needs to be worthwhile and verifiable new information.
Pretty pictures would be nice too.
Anyone else that would like to show pictures or tell stories of his season's
accomplishments would be welcome. A book release would be a nice
announcement too if anyone would have one ready to go at that time.
Harry
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Joe Ribaudo
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Interesting Proposition!
Harry,
That would be an interesting dinner.
I assume that guns would need to be checked at the door.
When you say "verifiable", what exactly do you mean? While I could provide a few pictures and stories, there would be no way for you to verify the information or pictures. Someone could provide a picture that was taken outside the Superstitions and you would have absolutly no way to check it out, without knowing the location itself. Without the whole thing being "over" I somehow doubt you will get much proof of authenticity.
Azmula has a right to be "confident". I have always given him kudos for his research, however, agreement with his research does not equal acceptance of his conclusions. I have a great deal of respect for the work that Azmula has done. I would not be comfortable getting into a Stone Map "pissing contest" with the man. "Man's got to know his limitations."
Elsewhere in this forum I have given a great deal of information concerning what I have found, without saying where it was found. I am still waiting to see the same type of information flow from yourself, Wiz, Azmula or any of the others who believe in the Stone Maps. Many years ago I placed the location of Two of the monuments shown on the Stone Maps on my own map. When I went to that exact spot in the mountains, the monuments were there. The one monument pointed out the second monument, just as I said it would. I had also placed the circle in a circle on my map. When we went to that location, five years ago, we found the circle in a circle. I have been to the triangle-slash. It is where I expected it to be and (also) where I placed it on my own map. I understand that those things could just be coincidences and the same things could be found anywhere in the mountains, and have been, but it has managed to keep us interested. I have no doubt that all of these things have been found by you folks and that is why you are all still interested as well. I am sure you all know what the final location holds and what symbol, of the many that are on the Stone Maps, denotes the location. It is at the end of the trail, right? Is it safe to assume it is not at the triangle slash, or the one (1) or the cross or one (or all) of the Xs? What about the circle in a circle or the "Ds" or the three(3), could any of those be the treasure or mine/cache? Could the large hole with the small hole and three-like "squiggle over it be the real location?
Lots of mystery here, and only one lifetime to figure it out. Makes me wish I had spent more of my free time on it. Perhaps in Mexico.
While your comments are interesting, they reveal little of your conclusions or confirmations of your own finds in this search. Most of the conversations here continue to be a one-way street. It seems like a number of the members start to get a little testy when the flow of information slows down or if they are questioned about or have someone disagree with their comments or conclusions.
While folks like yourself, Azmula or Wiz don't need to reveal where they have found the things that keep you interested, it seems safe to say what you have found that keeps you in the hunt.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
That would be an interesting dinner.
I assume that guns would need to be checked at the door.
When you say "verifiable", what exactly do you mean? While I could provide a few pictures and stories, there would be no way for you to verify the information or pictures. Someone could provide a picture that was taken outside the Superstitions and you would have absolutly no way to check it out, without knowing the location itself. Without the whole thing being "over" I somehow doubt you will get much proof of authenticity.
Azmula has a right to be "confident". I have always given him kudos for his research, however, agreement with his research does not equal acceptance of his conclusions. I have a great deal of respect for the work that Azmula has done. I would not be comfortable getting into a Stone Map "pissing contest" with the man. "Man's got to know his limitations."
Elsewhere in this forum I have given a great deal of information concerning what I have found, without saying where it was found. I am still waiting to see the same type of information flow from yourself, Wiz, Azmula or any of the others who believe in the Stone Maps. Many years ago I placed the location of Two of the monuments shown on the Stone Maps on my own map. When I went to that exact spot in the mountains, the monuments were there. The one monument pointed out the second monument, just as I said it would. I had also placed the circle in a circle on my map. When we went to that location, five years ago, we found the circle in a circle. I have been to the triangle-slash. It is where I expected it to be and (also) where I placed it on my own map. I understand that those things could just be coincidences and the same things could be found anywhere in the mountains, and have been, but it has managed to keep us interested. I have no doubt that all of these things have been found by you folks and that is why you are all still interested as well. I am sure you all know what the final location holds and what symbol, of the many that are on the Stone Maps, denotes the location. It is at the end of the trail, right? Is it safe to assume it is not at the triangle slash, or the one (1) or the cross or one (or all) of the Xs? What about the circle in a circle or the "Ds" or the three(3), could any of those be the treasure or mine/cache? Could the large hole with the small hole and three-like "squiggle over it be the real location?
Lots of mystery here, and only one lifetime to figure it out. Makes me wish I had spent more of my free time on it. Perhaps in Mexico.
While your comments are interesting, they reveal little of your conclusions or confirmations of your own finds in this search. Most of the conversations here continue to be a one-way street. It seems like a number of the members start to get a little testy when the flow of information slows down or if they are questioned about or have someone disagree with their comments or conclusions.
While folks like yourself, Azmula or Wiz don't need to reveal where they have found the things that keep you interested, it seems safe to say what you have found that keeps you in the hunt.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Interesting Proposition!
Whoa!Joe Ribaudo wrote: I am still waiting to see the same type of information flow from yourself, Wiz, Azmula or any of the others who believe in the Stone Maps.
I've been pretty clear that I don't have any information like that. I'm not holding out; I really don't know what the maps mean!
I just go out there for the scenery, fresh air, and exercise.
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Joe Ribaudo
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You Left Something Out
Wiz and Peter,
You have both left out my own personal reason for going into the Supes:
I like to see just how far I can go with gourmet cooking in a wilderness setting. The rest is pretty easy.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
You have both left out my own personal reason for going into the Supes:
I like to see just how far I can go with gourmet cooking in a wilderness setting. The rest is pretty easy.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Wiz
Nah, Waltz was the real deal. Probably not many of us today could have kept up with him in his 60s....I doubt I could. Men were men back then...most likely cause they had to shlep around on their dogs (or on horseback) all the time. See how the combustible engine, electricity and the microchip have changed the world?
P
Nah, Waltz was the real deal. Probably not many of us today could have kept up with him in his 60s....I doubt I could. Men were men back then...most likely cause they had to shlep around on their dogs (or on horseback) all the time. See how the combustible engine, electricity and the microchip have changed the world?
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Gone?
Wiz,
I assume someone ate it.
I think I left out the brocoli and cheese sauce.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I assume someone ate it.
I think I left out the brocoli and cheese sauce.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Eat crow dinner
I was thinking of metal detectors at the door. A fortune, real or imagined
has to be treated the same. One guy's play could be another's dream.
Surely none of us is a bubble off plumb.
The term verifiable would apply to me only. If I present a picture a GPS
coordinate goes with it. If I'm not ready to present a coordinate then
I won't show the picture and it isn't worth anyone's time to show up.
If the rest of you wanted to show pictures without coordinates it would
be fine by me.
We could have a contest for the best end mark, or the best X. It wouldn't
bother me if one of them came from New Mexico. I wouldn't mind
seeing a collection of slashed triangles. I don't have one of those.
The problem isn't the end mark. The problem is to go the remaining
distance. Probably less than 500ft. The info needed might be contained
in the 10 and triangle under the heart, the F, and the numbers at the
bottom of the map. Don't forget the wayward three, too.
I would be happy to find an empty hole with verifiable authenticity.
A note in it saying Pedro was here in 1846 or something. You would
get the glory of solving the maps without the hassle. I wouldn't
be too displeased with "Kilroy was here", or "gotcha!"
Solve the final puzzle and somebody would probably show you his
endmark.
You are correct. It is what we have found that keeps us in the hunt.
It sure does beat a plain old hike. We should do a poll and see how
many end marks, Xs, and slashed triangles there are out there.
I bet most have at least one example. Imagination does wonders.
Harry
P.S. The website ate a similar post.
has to be treated the same. One guy's play could be another's dream.
Surely none of us is a bubble off plumb.
The term verifiable would apply to me only. If I present a picture a GPS
coordinate goes with it. If I'm not ready to present a coordinate then
I won't show the picture and it isn't worth anyone's time to show up.
If the rest of you wanted to show pictures without coordinates it would
be fine by me.
We could have a contest for the best end mark, or the best X. It wouldn't
bother me if one of them came from New Mexico. I wouldn't mind
seeing a collection of slashed triangles. I don't have one of those.
The problem isn't the end mark. The problem is to go the remaining
distance. Probably less than 500ft. The info needed might be contained
in the 10 and triangle under the heart, the F, and the numbers at the
bottom of the map. Don't forget the wayward three, too.
I would be happy to find an empty hole with verifiable authenticity.
A note in it saying Pedro was here in 1846 or something. You would
get the glory of solving the maps without the hassle. I wouldn't
be too displeased with "Kilroy was here", or "gotcha!"
Solve the final puzzle and somebody would probably show you his
endmark.
You are correct. It is what we have found that keeps us in the hunt.
It sure does beat a plain old hike. We should do a poll and see how
many end marks, Xs, and slashed triangles there are out there.
I bet most have at least one example. Imagination does wonders.
Harry
P.S. The website ate a similar post.
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Joe Ribaudo
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A Plethora of Clues
Harry,
There are enough clues in the Superstitions to keep anyone interested in just about any area that you choose. If you find the triangle slash cave (?) where is the circle in a circle from there? Do the symbols that are around the triangle slash take you north, south, east or west from the triangle slash in order to find the circle in a circle? Is the circle in a circle a peak, the final location, a monument or a carving on the side of a boulder? If it is anything other than the final location, where do you go from there? What if there is something on the maps that tells you that the circle in a circle is not the final location?
There is evidence that the Jesuit treasure may still be where it was originally placed, probably by one of the early members of the Peralta family.
Is it possible that the LDM is shown on the maps? If so, what are the chances that John Chunning may have found it? Could it be worked out or a cache that is now empty? Any connections here S.C.?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
There are enough clues in the Superstitions to keep anyone interested in just about any area that you choose. If you find the triangle slash cave (?) where is the circle in a circle from there? Do the symbols that are around the triangle slash take you north, south, east or west from the triangle slash in order to find the circle in a circle? Is the circle in a circle a peak, the final location, a monument or a carving on the side of a boulder? If it is anything other than the final location, where do you go from there? What if there is something on the maps that tells you that the circle in a circle is not the final location?
There is evidence that the Jesuit treasure may still be where it was originally placed, probably by one of the early members of the Peralta family.
Is it possible that the LDM is shown on the maps? If so, what are the chances that John Chunning may have found it? Could it be worked out or a cache that is now empty? Any connections here S.C.?
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Stone Map Detail
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Last edited by azmula on Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Jesuits
Azmula,
Who was the Jesuit priest who returned to the church in Arispe in 1847?
Have you found no Peralta/Jesuit connection prior to 1847?
If you believe that the Jesuits gave the Peraltas the information of where the mines of the Superstitions were located, why would the Jesuit treasure still be there? If it was meant to go to the Vatican, why didn't it?
If the Jesuits of 1847 could read the maps and knew they showed the mines locations, wouldn't they also know they showed the treasure? If that is so, did they just say "oh well"? Wouldn't that information remain in the Jesuit Order? If so, the treasure should be long gone.
It might be a good idea to look into a Peralta/Jesuit connection that goes back a little farther in time. While you are at it, you might want to look for any Peralta/Franciscan history. Just conjecture here, so I could be wrong.
Your assertion that there were no Peraltas in Arispe prior to 1847 is incorrect. History bites your ah....story here.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Who was the Jesuit priest who returned to the church in Arispe in 1847?
Have you found no Peralta/Jesuit connection prior to 1847?
If you believe that the Jesuits gave the Peraltas the information of where the mines of the Superstitions were located, why would the Jesuit treasure still be there? If it was meant to go to the Vatican, why didn't it?
If the Jesuits of 1847 could read the maps and knew they showed the mines locations, wouldn't they also know they showed the treasure? If that is so, did they just say "oh well"? Wouldn't that information remain in the Jesuit Order? If so, the treasure should be long gone.
It might be a good idea to look into a Peralta/Jesuit connection that goes back a little farther in time. While you are at it, you might want to look for any Peralta/Franciscan history. Just conjecture here, so I could be wrong.
Your assertion that there were no Peraltas in Arispe prior to 1847 is incorrect. History bites your ah....story here.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
We do not have pictures of a slashed triangle monument. We will be
traveling from one end of the Superstitions to the other this winter
and have one trip earmarked to look for it.
We do consider it to be a monument. We never considered it to be a
cave though I guess it is a possibility. I didn't realize before that
many may consider it to be Triangle cave. We do not consider it to be a
destination. These are just opinions. If we find it I hope it is definitive
and not a possible product of imagination.
Harry
traveling from one end of the Superstitions to the other this winter
and have one trip earmarked to look for it.
We do consider it to be a monument. We never considered it to be a
cave though I guess it is a possibility. I didn't realize before that
many may consider it to be Triangle cave. We do not consider it to be a
destination. These are just opinions. If we find it I hope it is definitive
and not a possible product of imagination.
Harry
Signs and Symbols
DELETED
Last edited by azmula on Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Good Thinking
Azmula and Harry,
I really like the way you are both thinking. Of course, my opinion and five bucks each, may buy you each a decent cup of coffee.
Harry's belief that the triangle slash is a monument has a lot of merit to it.
The question is whether it will actually look exactly like it is drawn or is it, perhaps, actually upside down. It is good to know that you are both still looking for it. I wish you both luck.
I am going to guess that Azmula will be looking in a more focused area.
He is advancing the Kenworthy reading of the triangle slash and that is hard to argue with.
Azmula,
I assume my questions and comments rubbed you the wrong way since you did not respond to them. I was not sure if the other members of the forum who are interested in the Stone Maps knew the answers and thought they might find them of interest. I understand if you are saving that information for your book and respect that decision.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I really like the way you are both thinking. Of course, my opinion and five bucks each, may buy you each a decent cup of coffee.
Harry's belief that the triangle slash is a monument has a lot of merit to it.
The question is whether it will actually look exactly like it is drawn or is it, perhaps, actually upside down. It is good to know that you are both still looking for it. I wish you both luck.
I am going to guess that Azmula will be looking in a more focused area.
He is advancing the Kenworthy reading of the triangle slash and that is hard to argue with.
Azmula,
I assume my questions and comments rubbed you the wrong way since you did not respond to them. I was not sure if the other members of the forum who are interested in the Stone Maps knew the answers and thought they might find them of interest. I understand if you are saving that information for your book and respect that decision.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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A Little History
For anyone who is interested in the Peralta history and the Jesuit Treasure via the Stone Maps, here is a little more history that might be useful in trying to tie them all together.
While it is true that the Jesuits returned around 1816, by 1820 there were only 32 of them in Mexico. In 1821 they were "dispersed". They were invited back in 1843, but refused because of the limitations placed on the Order by General Santa Anna and the unstable condition of the country at that time. Four of them finally returned in 1854.
Dr. Glover has given us the story of Blas Peralta. Blas did not live in Arizpe, but in Jamaica, Mexico. His son, Jose Maria Peralta, did marry Mariana Moreno who may have been the daughter of Don Salvador Julian Moreno.
Don Moreno owned the hacienda, San Joseph de Jamaica. He and his wife held a great deal of land in the area. eventually the family lost the hacienda and much of the property. In the middle of this little story is a secular priest and family friend named, Juan Joseph de Grijalba.
The Peralta family had strong ties to the Jesuits. They were not big fans of the Franciscans which might be hinted at in historicals records as well as Dr. Glover's fine research.
Since I did not hear back from Azmula, I will assume this information was not going to be in his book.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
While it is true that the Jesuits returned around 1816, by 1820 there were only 32 of them in Mexico. In 1821 they were "dispersed". They were invited back in 1843, but refused because of the limitations placed on the Order by General Santa Anna and the unstable condition of the country at that time. Four of them finally returned in 1854.
Dr. Glover has given us the story of Blas Peralta. Blas did not live in Arizpe, but in Jamaica, Mexico. His son, Jose Maria Peralta, did marry Mariana Moreno who may have been the daughter of Don Salvador Julian Moreno.
Don Moreno owned the hacienda, San Joseph de Jamaica. He and his wife held a great deal of land in the area. eventually the family lost the hacienda and much of the property. In the middle of this little story is a secular priest and family friend named, Juan Joseph de Grijalba.
The Peralta family had strong ties to the Jesuits. They were not big fans of the Franciscans which might be hinted at in historicals records as well as Dr. Glover's fine research.
Since I did not hear back from Azmula, I will assume this information was not going to be in his book.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Circle in a Circle
We now have a Peralta connection to a Priest in Mexico (1765) named,
Grijalba. Next we have Azmula coming to the forum trying to find information on a family from Mexico named, Grivalba (Grijalba?) and their possession of a Stone Map. Rounding out this little circle of events and people we have a man named Pedro Ortega being murdered outside the front door of Jacob Waltz (with Waltz's shotgun) by a man named, Selso Grijalva. The circle is completed by another man named, Genio Grijalva who is mentioned on page 139 in "Part 1" of Thomas Glover's excellent book.
Is all of this a coincidence or the completion of a family circle that had it's roots in a priest named, Juan Joseph de Grijalba back in 1765 in Mexico?
Could Waltz have received his mine through information that came through a family connection to the good Father?
By the way Harry, does any of this qualify as "new information"?
History bites again.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Grijalba. Next we have Azmula coming to the forum trying to find information on a family from Mexico named, Grivalba (Grijalba?) and their possession of a Stone Map. Rounding out this little circle of events and people we have a man named Pedro Ortega being murdered outside the front door of Jacob Waltz (with Waltz's shotgun) by a man named, Selso Grijalva. The circle is completed by another man named, Genio Grijalva who is mentioned on page 139 in "Part 1" of Thomas Glover's excellent book.
Is all of this a coincidence or the completion of a family circle that had it's roots in a priest named, Juan Joseph de Grijalba back in 1765 in Mexico?
Could Waltz have received his mine through information that came through a family connection to the good Father?
By the way Harry, does any of this qualify as "new information"?
History bites again.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Sources
Azmula,
In a previous post I said:
"Azmula has a right to be "confident". I have always given him kudos for his research, however, agreement with his research does not equal acceptance of his conclusions. I have a great deal of respect for the work that Azmula has done. I would not be comfortable getting into a Stone Map "pissing contest" with the man. "Man's got to know his limitations."
I don't want to go back and quote all the "nice" things I have said about you and your obvious, extensive, research. I think the above statement sums up my feelings quite well.
You said:
"Joe,
I am not going to play your games. I let your last two posts on the Sone Map thread slide assuming that everyone will see the unsupported "red herrings" and missing timeline facts put forth are meaning less to the 18th century study of the map's origin. It is your historical reputation not mine in jeopardy. BUT..."
Azmula,
I am hard pressed to understand your heated response to my two posts.
Neither post was addressed to you and yet, you have taken it as some kind of personal attack. I gave you the opourtunity to come up with some facts, backed by sources, and you were silent. a private message or E-mail would have worked just fine. Since you stated that the Jesuits were back in Arizpe and tied it to 1847, I assumed you had researched that fact and would know the name of the Jesuit Priest who returned. I saw no harm in asking for his name.
My "unsupported red herrings" for the information on the Peralta/Moreno/ Father Grijalba connection can be found in the following source:
"The Wandering Peoples" Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850" by, Cynthia Radding 1977.
Page Number: 187
If you are interested in her sources for the information I will be happy to supply you with that information as well.
My "unsupported red herrings" for the date of the restoration of the Jesuits to Mexico, can be found in the following source:
CATHOLIC ENCLYCLOPEDIA: The restored Jesuit (1814-1912).
To save you time, here is the exact passage:
MEXICO
In Mexico (New Spain) Jesuit missionaries began their work in 1571, and prior to their expulsion, in 1767, they numbered 678 members of whom 468 were natives. They had over 40 colleges or seminaries, 5 residences, and 6 missionary districts, with 99 missions. The mission included Cuba, lower California, and as far south as Nicaragua. Three members of the suppressed Society who were in Mexico at the time of the Restoration formed a nucleus for its re-establishment there in 1816. In 1820, there were 32, of whom 15 were priests and 3 scholastics, in care of 4 colleges and 3 seminaries. They were dispersed in 1821. Although invited back in 1843, they could not agree to the limitations put on their activities by General Santa Anna, nor was the prospect favourable in the revolutionary condition of the country. Four of their number returning in 1854, the mission prospered, and in spite of two dispersions, 1859 and 1873, it has continued to increase in number and activity. In Augest, 1907, it was reconstituted a province. It has now 326 members with four colleges, 12 residences, 6 mission stations among the Tarahumara, and a novitiate (see also Mexico; Pious Fund of the Californias)."
It could be that I have misread all of this material, and you will soon show me your own sources for dates and events which you have put forth in this forum. In truth, I believe that is possible and I will have no problem saying my sources are incorrect and that my "historical reputation" is "in jeopardy" as if I ever had any such thing. I am a fan of history, not a student or scholar.
I look forward to seeing your own sources for your historical comments.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
In a previous post I said:
"Azmula has a right to be "confident". I have always given him kudos for his research, however, agreement with his research does not equal acceptance of his conclusions. I have a great deal of respect for the work that Azmula has done. I would not be comfortable getting into a Stone Map "pissing contest" with the man. "Man's got to know his limitations."
I don't want to go back and quote all the "nice" things I have said about you and your obvious, extensive, research. I think the above statement sums up my feelings quite well.
You said:
"Joe,
I am not going to play your games. I let your last two posts on the Sone Map thread slide assuming that everyone will see the unsupported "red herrings" and missing timeline facts put forth are meaning less to the 18th century study of the map's origin. It is your historical reputation not mine in jeopardy. BUT..."
Azmula,
I am hard pressed to understand your heated response to my two posts.
Neither post was addressed to you and yet, you have taken it as some kind of personal attack. I gave you the opourtunity to come up with some facts, backed by sources, and you were silent. a private message or E-mail would have worked just fine. Since you stated that the Jesuits were back in Arizpe and tied it to 1847, I assumed you had researched that fact and would know the name of the Jesuit Priest who returned. I saw no harm in asking for his name.
My "unsupported red herrings" for the information on the Peralta/Moreno/ Father Grijalba connection can be found in the following source:
"The Wandering Peoples" Colonialism, Ethnic Spaces, and Ecological Frontiers in Northwestern Mexico, 1700-1850" by, Cynthia Radding 1977.
Page Number: 187
If you are interested in her sources for the information I will be happy to supply you with that information as well.
My "unsupported red herrings" for the date of the restoration of the Jesuits to Mexico, can be found in the following source:
CATHOLIC ENCLYCLOPEDIA: The restored Jesuit (1814-1912).
To save you time, here is the exact passage:
MEXICO
In Mexico (New Spain) Jesuit missionaries began their work in 1571, and prior to their expulsion, in 1767, they numbered 678 members of whom 468 were natives. They had over 40 colleges or seminaries, 5 residences, and 6 missionary districts, with 99 missions. The mission included Cuba, lower California, and as far south as Nicaragua. Three members of the suppressed Society who were in Mexico at the time of the Restoration formed a nucleus for its re-establishment there in 1816. In 1820, there were 32, of whom 15 were priests and 3 scholastics, in care of 4 colleges and 3 seminaries. They were dispersed in 1821. Although invited back in 1843, they could not agree to the limitations put on their activities by General Santa Anna, nor was the prospect favourable in the revolutionary condition of the country. Four of their number returning in 1854, the mission prospered, and in spite of two dispersions, 1859 and 1873, it has continued to increase in number and activity. In Augest, 1907, it was reconstituted a province. It has now 326 members with four colleges, 12 residences, 6 mission stations among the Tarahumara, and a novitiate (see also Mexico; Pious Fund of the Californias)."
It could be that I have misread all of this material, and you will soon show me your own sources for dates and events which you have put forth in this forum. In truth, I believe that is possible and I will have no problem saying my sources are incorrect and that my "historical reputation" is "in jeopardy" as if I ever had any such thing.
I am a fan of history, not a student or scholar.I look forward to seeing your own sources for your historical comments.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
[email protected]
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:44 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Peter Pops Off
Peter,
I don't want you wandering around all over the place confused by my answering a Stone Map comment from Azmula in the Stone Map topic, so I will try to clear up this little mystery for you.
Azmula made his comments concerning my posts on the Stone Map thread on the topic: Questions about Priest stone map. I thought his comments and my answer belonged on this thread so I quoted what he had said on the Questions about Priest stone map thread on the Stone Map thread and there you have it.
I could, of course, be wrong but other than confusing you, I don't think it did any harm.
I should have explained all of this in my reply to Azmula and I apologize for any confusion it may have caused the other members and, of course, you.
I am just happy that you are returning to your old self and once again making meaningful, well thought out comments on the things you find important.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
I don't want you wandering around all over the place confused by my answering a Stone Map comment from Azmula in the Stone Map topic, so I will try to clear up this little mystery for you.
Azmula made his comments concerning my posts on the Stone Map thread on the topic: Questions about Priest stone map. I thought his comments and my answer belonged on this thread so I quoted what he had said on the Questions about Priest stone map thread on the Stone Map thread and there you have it.
I could, of course, be wrong but other than confusing you, I don't think it did any harm.
I should have explained all of this in my reply to Azmula and I apologize for any confusion it may have caused the other members and, of course, you.
I am just happy that you are returning to your old self and once again making meaningful, well thought out comments on the things you find important.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo