Thanks, Joe...
Lazarus
Spamish Treasure Symbols
Spanish Language
JOE; Thank,s for your imput I was taking the word of the proffesser on the old language not being read or used anymore. I sent you the mag. with waltz in it. I waited a few days because I had another mag. with a horse pic. on a map, I wanted you to look at. But I couldn,t find it. The other story I will write you some nite soon in an email. Bill 
Lazarus; I have read and heard where those signs were used sometimes as directers when 1 leg was being pulled alittle longer than the other. Bill 
Lazarus; I have read and heard where those signs were used sometimes as directers when 1 leg was being pulled alittle longer than the other. Bill -
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
"Under Pain of Spain"
Kenworthy wrote:
"In 1983 a letter arrived stating that 116 pages had been found relating to the King of Spain's rules and regulations on mining and exploration in the new world. Included were thirty-four pages of coded signs and symbols to be used in documents and on maps and their meanings. Also included were drawings of trail markers that Spain required to be constructed, "under pain of Spain", along all treasure/mine trails."
The phrase "under pain of Spain" is used here, as if it were a common saying. I have seen it used one other time, and that was also by treasure hunters. I have never seen it used in any book written by the historical figures of the New World.
My guess is that these "treasure hunters" picked it up from Kenworthy.
I wonder how much he paid his "source" for that "document". I doubt it came cheap. Was he the victim of a scam? Wouldn't be the first or last time someone paid good money for "made-up" clues to Spanish Treasure.
I prefer that explanation to Kenworthy's making it up himself.
If anyone else has seen it used, fess up.
Respectfully,
Joe
"In 1983 a letter arrived stating that 116 pages had been found relating to the King of Spain's rules and regulations on mining and exploration in the new world. Included were thirty-four pages of coded signs and symbols to be used in documents and on maps and their meanings. Also included were drawings of trail markers that Spain required to be constructed, "under pain of Spain", along all treasure/mine trails."
The phrase "under pain of Spain" is used here, as if it were a common saying. I have seen it used one other time, and that was also by treasure hunters. I have never seen it used in any book written by the historical figures of the New World.
My guess is that these "treasure hunters" picked it up from Kenworthy.
I wonder how much he paid his "source" for that "document". I doubt it came cheap. Was he the victim of a scam? Wouldn't be the first or last time someone paid good money for "made-up" clues to Spanish Treasure.
I prefer that explanation to Kenworthy's making it up himself.
If anyone else has seen it used, fess up.
Respectfully,
Joe
Lazarus
I just got back into the reading of activitities. My wife got a new computer and we had to reset our operating parameters. It left me out of the wonderful exchange I have been reading.
Lazarus asked about the "A"s and "V"s as markers. "According to Kenworthy"... The "A"s or "V"s were normally pointers off the peak using the split of the angle to point you forward.
As for the trouble in making these marks..."V"s commonly appear around every mountain when viewing the mountain from an aerial photograph. The "V" is created by diverging valleys around the ridegs coming off the hill. All of these "V"s point to the peak of the hill. (WRONG "V"s.)
The use of an "A" formation is more significant because the cross-bar does not commonly appear in nature. By only making the crossbar, a Spaniard could convert a commonly found form on a hillside into a trail marker with minimal effort.
A friend of mine who just returned from the Big Bend National Forest commented that he saw faces everywhere in the rocks. When creating a face pattern in the rocks, I could see a Spaniard using a rock that matches the form desired. I cant remember who, but one reading source stated that the faces look towards the mine or path that they oversee.
I had planned to visit the Coronado National Forest last November to test the lessons I believe Kenworthy taught me in his books. I had to cancel because "body recovery" (the backup safety team) was injured and left only two for the trek. We have rescheduled our trip for late March to see if what I think I know is true or proves to be wrong.
I found what looked like trail markers using 2.18 miles to the league instead of 3 or 3.25 miles. I followed the alleged trail markers until four markers conflicted in directions and pointed to a central point. At that central point I found and aerial photograph showing, what I believe to be, a skull like that from a "jolly roger" pirate flag...no cross-bones.
I believe I have found a pedestal, a fallen statue, two mines, and a small trail along the range of a mountain and not down-slope that leads to all of the suspected finds. My only hope is that I have trained sufficiently to withstand the 6 mile and 1200 foot trek into the area of interest.
Photographs will follow upon my successful return. The use of "Body recovery" is for my wife and settling insurance claims if I prove to be a "booby" and fall victim to a trap.
Another marker Lazarus may be interested is that of an eagle. Remember making birds in drawings that were just a squiggle of a "V" with arched wings and the body being the point of the "V". Kenworthy references the image associated with one of the apostles. Distorting this figure, just like distorting the "A" formation can cause emphasis to be shifted to a different direction than usual.
Again, my embarrassment will come in April, let us make it April first. Thereby, whatever I say, truth or fantasy, will be questioned throughtout this forum as "BS". Pictures will be taken in 35 mm, polaroid and digital formats. I will forward copies of the digital pictures of interest to the forum!
As a Kenworthy supporter I must remind you that: All salesmen shovel. On a dairy farm I shoveled at the age of seven. You only worry when you want to buy what B...)&^ is shoveled.
Till April!
Lazarus asked about the "A"s and "V"s as markers. "According to Kenworthy"... The "A"s or "V"s were normally pointers off the peak using the split of the angle to point you forward.
As for the trouble in making these marks..."V"s commonly appear around every mountain when viewing the mountain from an aerial photograph. The "V" is created by diverging valleys around the ridegs coming off the hill. All of these "V"s point to the peak of the hill. (WRONG "V"s.)
The use of an "A" formation is more significant because the cross-bar does not commonly appear in nature. By only making the crossbar, a Spaniard could convert a commonly found form on a hillside into a trail marker with minimal effort.
A friend of mine who just returned from the Big Bend National Forest commented that he saw faces everywhere in the rocks. When creating a face pattern in the rocks, I could see a Spaniard using a rock that matches the form desired. I cant remember who, but one reading source stated that the faces look towards the mine or path that they oversee.
I had planned to visit the Coronado National Forest last November to test the lessons I believe Kenworthy taught me in his books. I had to cancel because "body recovery" (the backup safety team) was injured and left only two for the trek. We have rescheduled our trip for late March to see if what I think I know is true or proves to be wrong.
I found what looked like trail markers using 2.18 miles to the league instead of 3 or 3.25 miles. I followed the alleged trail markers until four markers conflicted in directions and pointed to a central point. At that central point I found and aerial photograph showing, what I believe to be, a skull like that from a "jolly roger" pirate flag...no cross-bones.
I believe I have found a pedestal, a fallen statue, two mines, and a small trail along the range of a mountain and not down-slope that leads to all of the suspected finds. My only hope is that I have trained sufficiently to withstand the 6 mile and 1200 foot trek into the area of interest.
Photographs will follow upon my successful return. The use of "Body recovery" is for my wife and settling insurance claims if I prove to be a "booby" and fall victim to a trap.
Another marker Lazarus may be interested is that of an eagle. Remember making birds in drawings that were just a squiggle of a "V" with arched wings and the body being the point of the "V". Kenworthy references the image associated with one of the apostles. Distorting this figure, just like distorting the "A" formation can cause emphasis to be shifted to a different direction than usual.
Again, my embarrassment will come in April, let us make it April first. Thereby, whatever I say, truth or fantasy, will be questioned throughtout this forum as "BS". Pictures will be taken in 35 mm, polaroid and digital formats. I will forward copies of the digital pictures of interest to the forum!
As a Kenworthy supporter I must remind you that: All salesmen shovel. On a dairy farm I shoveled at the age of seven. You only worry when you want to buy what B...)&^ is shoveled.
Till April!
Charlie
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Good Luck.
Charlie,
Good to see you back.
You said:
"Again, my embarrassment will come in April, let us make it April first. Thereby, whatever I say, truth or fantasy, will be questioned throughtout this forum as "BS". Pictures will be taken in 35 mm, polaroid and digital formats. I will forward copies of the digital pictures of interest to the forum!"
You will not be embarrassed at any time on this forum. Everyone who has read your past posts respects your opinions and judgement. That includes me. That respect does not mean I will agree with all of your conclusions or opinions, but I will respect how you arrived there. Long hours of research, long hours of field work and conclusions based on the available evidence.
I said:
"I know some people don't like the idea of providing sources, but you just can't go around making "big claims" without being able to back them up. Someone will always call "bullshit".
BULLSHIT! Let's see your cards pardner."
As I read your last post and remembered what I had written, I realized that you may have thought those comments were directed to you. I should have clarified that I was speaking to the ghost of Charles Kenworthy. Not knowing the man, I realize that some of my comments may have cut some who may have considered him a friend. That was careless of me and I apologize for my thoughtlessness.
Good luck in March.
Respectfully,
Joe
Good to see you back.
You said:
"Again, my embarrassment will come in April, let us make it April first. Thereby, whatever I say, truth or fantasy, will be questioned throughtout this forum as "BS". Pictures will be taken in 35 mm, polaroid and digital formats. I will forward copies of the digital pictures of interest to the forum!"
You will not be embarrassed at any time on this forum. Everyone who has read your past posts respects your opinions and judgement. That includes me. That respect does not mean I will agree with all of your conclusions or opinions, but I will respect how you arrived there. Long hours of research, long hours of field work and conclusions based on the available evidence.
I said:
"I know some people don't like the idea of providing sources, but you just can't go around making "big claims" without being able to back them up. Someone will always call "bullshit".
BULLSHIT! Let's see your cards pardner."
As I read your last post and remembered what I had written, I realized that you may have thought those comments were directed to you. I should have clarified that I was speaking to the ghost of Charles Kenworthy. Not knowing the man, I realize that some of my comments may have cut some who may have considered him a friend. That was careless of me and I apologize for my thoughtlessness.
Good luck in March.
Respectfully,
Joe
Spanih Treasure Symbols
Charlie,
I agree with Joe. You have nothing to be embarrassed about. I think you have taken a completely different and unique approach in your research. I also like your wife's " Body Recovery " approach. You must not be young and foolish like some of us were in the beginning. You learn as you go.
Terry
I agree with Joe. You have nothing to be embarrassed about. I think you have taken a completely different and unique approach in your research. I also like your wife's " Body Recovery " approach. You must not be young and foolish like some of us were in the beginning. You learn as you go.
Terry
Symbols and markers
Joe; You were 100% right. I got my 12.00 Mining law book this evening. YES it,s all in spanish and I,m even smart enough to see there are no symbols or markers there. NEXT time I will wait for a review, DO you hear that Lazarus??? Bill
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
No Joy!
Bill,
I find no pleasure in being right on this topic. I have said it before, and I don't mind repeating it again. I hope I am proved wrong on Kenworthy's
claims and I will have no problem "eating crow".
I would dearly love to see those "thirty-four pages of coded signs and symbols to be used in documents and on maps and their meanings". Who wouldn't? I would also love to see the "drawings of trail markers that Spain required to be constructed, "under pain of Spain", along all treasure/mine trails."
On the day that evidence is brought forward, I will offer to meet all parties who are interested at a local saloon, perhaps Goldfield, and pay for a decent bourbon and branch water all around. I would enjoy being the leader of that celebration. You can all take that offer to the bank, just don't try to make an early deposit.
I assume Dr. Glover has received his copy of the book by now, and I am looking forward to some comments from him.
Terry,
When I think of the times I went into the Superstitions alone, and the places I climbed and hiked, I realize what you meant by "young and foolish". Hope you have been well. Trout biting?
Respectfully,
Joe
I find no pleasure in being right on this topic. I have said it before, and I don't mind repeating it again. I hope I am proved wrong on Kenworthy's
claims and I will have no problem "eating crow".
I would dearly love to see those "thirty-four pages of coded signs and symbols to be used in documents and on maps and their meanings". Who wouldn't? I would also love to see the "drawings of trail markers that Spain required to be constructed, "under pain of Spain", along all treasure/mine trails."
On the day that evidence is brought forward, I will offer to meet all parties who are interested at a local saloon, perhaps Goldfield, and pay for a decent bourbon and branch water all around. I would enjoy being the leader of that celebration. You can all take that offer to the bank, just don't try to make an early deposit.
I assume Dr. Glover has received his copy of the book by now, and I am looking forward to some comments from him.
Terry,
When I think of the times I went into the Superstitions alone, and the places I climbed and hiked, I realize what you meant by "young and foolish". Hope you have been well. Trout biting?
Respectfully,
Joe
34 pages of documents
Joe,
I believe a good place to look for the mentions documents might be with Chuck Kenworthy's son, Tiger. I heard from a source that he was the one who has them. If they ever are made public, I certianly will be at the bar you mentioned slamming a few cold one's. I believe that Kenwrothy had such documents and after he passed away his son took possession.
Rochha
I believe a good place to look for the mentions documents might be with Chuck Kenworthy's son, Tiger. I heard from a source that he was the one who has them. If they ever are made public, I certianly will be at the bar you mentioned slamming a few cold one's. I believe that Kenwrothy had such documents and after he passed away his son took possession.
Rochha
symbols & signs
Joe; I beleive that if Ken. had a document called so and so it was put togather by somebody else and sold as the kings orders. Somebody trying to make more by a little white lie. Bill
Skulls
Lazarus
Skulls are outbound trailmarkers, look close either at the eye's or the nose. If they both dont point in the same direction then either look and see if there is a small " v " pointing at either one. Which ever one is pointed to that is the direction to go in for the next markers. Hope this helps.
Rochha
Skulls are outbound trailmarkers, look close either at the eye's or the nose. If they both dont point in the same direction then either look and see if there is a small " v " pointing at either one. Which ever one is pointed to that is the direction to go in for the next markers. Hope this helps.
Rochha
Locating Eugene Lyon
I have spent some time tracking down Eugene Lyon who did the Seville archives searching for Mel Fisher and who Kenworhty told me he had used to get some Spanish archives information - possibly the map making rules. I have located Eugene in Florida where he has just been elected to the position of President of the Mel Fisher Maritime Heritage Society Board in Key West, Florida. He is attending his first Society Board meeting in Key West this week. Eugene resides in the central area of Florida. Here is the press release link on Eugene's election:
http://www.melfisher.org/eugenelyonboard2003.htm
You can see from this release that Eugene has a very distinguished set of credentials in Spanish history and is well recognized both in the U.S. and Europe. I have obtained his email address and sent him a request to verify Kenworthy's claims and if he has seen the Spanish map making rules from Seville or any other source.
Will keep the Forum posted on what I find.
Roger
http://www.melfisher.org/eugenelyonboard2003.htm
You can see from this release that Eugene has a very distinguished set of credentials in Spanish history and is well recognized both in the U.S. and Europe. I have obtained his email address and sent him a request to verify Kenworthy's claims and if he has seen the Spanish map making rules from Seville or any other source.
Will keep the Forum posted on what I find.
Roger
Roger,
Excellent post, you have done your home work well, I for one will be awaiting your response on him. As I stated earler in a post I heard that Kenwrothy's son had possession of all his fathers files. I believe he did in fact receive 34 pages of mining information pertaining to the spanish mines. Kenworthy senior made a living as a treasue hunter, and yes I understand he was a hustler. I saw an article he did for a magazine on some silver bars he found in the vicinity of the Tumacacori Mountains, 938 of them to be exact, so he knew something. I have all of his books, it seems he wrote his books with selling them in mind. If one only has a few and not all of them you miss some information. Thanks for tracking this guy down, I will be very intersted in hearing what he has to say. Keep us all posted.
Rochha
Excellent post, you have done your home work well, I for one will be awaiting your response on him. As I stated earler in a post I heard that Kenwrothy's son had possession of all his fathers files. I believe he did in fact receive 34 pages of mining information pertaining to the spanish mines. Kenworthy senior made a living as a treasue hunter, and yes I understand he was a hustler. I saw an article he did for a magazine on some silver bars he found in the vicinity of the Tumacacori Mountains, 938 of them to be exact, so he knew something. I have all of his books, it seems he wrote his books with selling them in mind. If one only has a few and not all of them you miss some information. Thanks for tracking this guy down, I will be very intersted in hearing what he has to say. Keep us all posted.
Rochha