It would be interesting to know if everyone is in agreement with my friend,
and I am the "lone nut" out here.
Anyone care to opine?
Respectfully,
Joe
Ruth's Trail
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Joe Ribaudo
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Ruth's Trail
I recently had a conversation with someone I consider to be the top authority on all things Dutchman/Superstition Mountains. We had differing opinions on what trail Dr. Ruth, and his "guides" took into Willow Spring.
It would be interesting to know if everyone is in agreement with my friend,
and I am the "lone nut" out here.
Anyone care to opine?
Respectfully,
Joe
It would be interesting to know if everyone is in agreement with my friend,
and I am the "lone nut" out here.
Anyone care to opine?
Respectfully,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Maybe
Wiz,
"Is that the same theory one of you holds?"
Wow! Talk about leading with your chin. Did you just forget to add a
?
Being "under the impression" seems a little vague. I hate to ask, but what source gave you that "impression"? Who was actually the first writer to say they drove around to First Water, and came in that way?
I am going to guess that there must be a reliable source out there that gives a first hand account of that story, perhaps even an eyewitness account.
Was Gertrude Barkley staying at First Water? When the stories mention "the ranch", do they mean First Water?
When you take the trail in from First Water, which "summit" overlooks Weaver's Needle?
Just trying to get some wheels turning here. I don't really have any "facts", just wondering if they may have been changed a little. I suppose it is really just a "hunch". Perhaps some of you, meaning other actual members of the forum, might want to look back at that story, and come up with some reasons to start the Dr. Ruth trek from First Water Ranch.
Respectfully,
Joe
"Is that the same theory one of you holds?"
Wow! Talk about leading with your chin. Did you just forget to add a
?Being "under the impression" seems a little vague. I hate to ask, but what source gave you that "impression"? Who was actually the first writer to say they drove around to First Water, and came in that way?
I am going to guess that there must be a reliable source out there that gives a first hand account of that story, perhaps even an eyewitness account.
Was Gertrude Barkley staying at First Water? When the stories mention "the ranch", do they mean First Water?
When you take the trail in from First Water, which "summit" overlooks Weaver's Needle?
Just trying to get some wheels turning here. I don't really have any "facts", just wondering if they may have been changed a little. I suppose it is really just a "hunch". Perhaps some of you, meaning other actual members of the forum, might want to look back at that story, and come up with some reasons to start the Dr. Ruth trek from First Water Ranch.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Maybe
Uh, Joe, I think you're reading more into my response than was there. This is what I read somewhere, I don't remember where. If I did, I'd tell you. You didn't specify what you or your friend thought to be the case, so I asked.Joe Ribaudo wrote:Wiz,
"Is that the same theory one of you holds?"
Wow! Talk about leading with your chin. Did you just forget to add a
Being "under the impression" seems a little vague. I hate to ask, but what source gave you that "impression"? Who was actually the first writer to say they drove around to First Water, and came in that way?
Or are you once again soliciting comments for the purpose of giving the responder the third degree? Either way, I don't care. You and your friend can have fun deciding which is right.
All right, I got curious. Because I said I would tell you, here it is: Dr. Glover again, part 1 page 226:
"On June 13th while Tex was away shipping cattle, Adolph drove his car around the mountains to Tex's First Water Ranch on the western edge of the Superstition Mountains, and from there the two cowboy-prospectors, L. F. Purnell and Jack Keenan, packed him into the mountains..."
There. My source. Happy?
"On June 13th while Tex was away shipping cattle, Adolph drove his car around the mountains to Tex's First Water Ranch on the western edge of the Superstition Mountains, and from there the two cowboy-prospectors, L. F. Purnell and Jack Keenan, packed him into the mountains..."
There. My source. Happy?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Just a simple question
Wiz,
No need to get your panties in a bunch over a little teasing.
Dr. Glover wrote the best work ever done on the Lost Dutchman and the history that surrounds it, and the Superstition Mountains. He does not, however, give a source for that statement. As I said, I believe there is an historical source, just trying to find out what it is.
If that is the best you can do....of course I am happy.
I was hoping for something a little longer in the tooth, like a statement from someone who was alive at the time. There came a time when the story you site was first told. Anyone know who was the author or teller of that story?
I, along with everyone else who has a lick of sense and an interest in the legends of the Superstitions has read Dr. Glovers book. There are any number of "facts" in his book that he sources. This story is not one of them. My question is, did he only repeat a story he read, like you, or is there another source that is historical?
Thanks for your responses.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
No need to get your panties in a bunch over a little teasing.
Dr. Glover wrote the best work ever done on the Lost Dutchman and the history that surrounds it, and the Superstition Mountains. He does not, however, give a source for that statement. As I said, I believe there is an historical source, just trying to find out what it is.
If that is the best you can do....of course I am happy.
I was hoping for something a little longer in the tooth, like a statement from someone who was alive at the time. There came a time when the story you site was first told. Anyone know who was the author or teller of that story?I, along with everyone else who has a lick of sense and an interest in the legends of the Superstitions has read Dr. Glovers book. There are any number of "facts" in his book that he sources. This story is not one of them. My question is, did he only repeat a story he read, like you, or is there another source that is historical?
Thanks for your responses.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
OK, how about this. Barry Storm tells the same story in Thunder God's Gold. He cites his source as Abe Reid, who in turn claimed to have gotten the information directly from Keenan and Purnell.
Do you have any sources longer in the tooth than that to offer?
And, don't concern yourself over the condition of my panties. In fact, don't be thinking about them at all. It's unnatural. We have laws in this state!
Do you have any sources longer in the tooth than that to offer?
And, don't concern yourself over the condition of my panties. In fact, don't be thinking about them at all. It's unnatural. We have laws in this state!
Re: Ruth
I always wondered how they got his keys...bill711 wrote:Joe; Wouldn,t the inquest held have the testimony from the 2 men who packed Ruth in. I understood that they drove him around and then packed him in... Then they went on a joy ride in his car....Bill
There are several references to Ruth taking off from First Water. That was the ranch ran by Tex's son, Bill. These are from newspaper stories of the time. I have several of them. Glover did not just get a statement like that out of the blue.
Why did he go from there??? Good question. Perhaps because he was spinning his wheels at the U Ranch. Perhaps another reason.
Why give away the keys to the car? Good question. However, I doubt Ruth thought they'd be "joy riding" in the car. But they did. Sounds like teenagers with the keys to the parent's car.
Why did he go from there??? Good question. Perhaps because he was spinning his wheels at the U Ranch. Perhaps another reason.
Why give away the keys to the car? Good question. However, I doubt Ruth thought they'd be "joy riding" in the car. But they did. Sounds like teenagers with the keys to the parent's car.
S.C.,S.C. wrote:Why did he go from there??? Good question. Perhaps because he was spinning his wheels at the U Ranch. Perhaps another reason.
It seems to me like almost a no-brainer (I'm good at those). To get there from the Quarter Circle U, you're talking probably twice the distance. In his letter home (if you accept it as authentic), Ruth said they had gone between six and seven miles. It's about six miles from First Water to Willow Springs, and the trail is a heck of a lot easier than the one from Peralta Trailhead. Anyone in their right mind would prefer to drive an hour and spend several fewer hours in the saddle, especially in mid-June.
I suspect no other route was ever even considered.
This is not to say they couldn't have gone in from the Carney Springs area and over the saddle into West Boulder. But that's a VERY strenuous route, and I wouldn't think experienced cowboys would choose something like that instead of an easy ride in from First Water. Possible, but very unlikely IMHO.
Last edited by Wiz on Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The barkley,s
I figure this post will create a stink if anyone replies.. Did Tex really trust his son Bill?? I have read several articles where he didn,t seem to trust Bill very much.. Bill seemed to hang around with people that Tex didn,t have much faith in. Or just plain damned didn,t trust. What do any of you have to say. Bill
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Re: Ruth's Trail
Hah!
At last, a thread where I can actually offer some meaningful input! I read here all the time, but I never can think of anything intelligent to add to the expert comments of the longtime posters.
The first chapter of Sims Ely’s book, it is implied that the route taken by Ruth was “up Willow Canyon, the mouth of which was only a mile from the [Quarter Circle U] ranch. This trail led to a summit overlooking Weaver’s Needle and thence turned down into West Boulder.”
Now, as Ely puts it, that was Tex Barkley’s opinion on how to get to where Ruth wanted to go, and of course he did not take Ruth into the mountains. But since the two prospectors who packed Ruth in started from Barkley’s ranch, it sounds reasonable to me that they took the route suggested by him.
But I don’t know where Willow Canyon is, or at least I don’t know a Willow Canyon with a mouth a mile from the Quarter Circle U. Could it be an old name for Peralta Canyon, or perhaps the drainage above Carney Springs where the old West Boulder Trail goes up?
At last, a thread where I can actually offer some meaningful input! I read here all the time, but I never can think of anything intelligent to add to the expert comments of the longtime posters.
The first chapter of Sims Ely’s book, it is implied that the route taken by Ruth was “up Willow Canyon, the mouth of which was only a mile from the [Quarter Circle U] ranch. This trail led to a summit overlooking Weaver’s Needle and thence turned down into West Boulder.”
Now, as Ely puts it, that was Tex Barkley’s opinion on how to get to where Ruth wanted to go, and of course he did not take Ruth into the mountains. But since the two prospectors who packed Ruth in started from Barkley’s ranch, it sounds reasonable to me that they took the route suggested by him.
But I don’t know where Willow Canyon is, or at least I don’t know a Willow Canyon with a mouth a mile from the Quarter Circle U. Could it be an old name for Peralta Canyon, or perhaps the drainage above Carney Springs where the old West Boulder Trail goes up?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Willow Canyon
Thirsty,
It's interesting to see someone who's mind is open to what might have taken place, rather than what we have been assured did take place.
To find Willow Canyon, you would need to take a short trip N/W of First Water Ranch. I doubt you are alone in not knowing it's location.
You are probably not going to get very far quoting Sims Ely. The very best authority on this may be Greg Davis or Dr. Glover. Dr. Glover tells us that they started into the mountains from First Water Ranch. In his "Notes, Sources and Further Readings", he does not mention a source for this part of the story. I have no doubt that S.C. has the source(s) he mentions.
Wiz,
"OK, how about this. Barry Storm tells the same story in Thunder God's Gold. He cites his source as Abe Reid, who in turn claimed to have gotten the information directly from Keenan and Purnell.
Do you have any sources longer in the tooth than that to offer?"
Sorry Wiz, I thought I mentioned Sims Ely as a source. If you want to use Barry Storm as a source, I could hardly blame you. You might want to consider Barry Goldwater's opinion of the man before you hang your hat on his honesty.
After looking into that bit of history, you might want to see what you can dig up on Ely's reputation.
"And, don't concern yourself over the condition of my panties. In fact, don't be thinking about them at all. It's unnatural. We have laws in this state!"
As for that statement, it's just an expression and has nothing to do with the actuall "condition" of your underwear. I have never felt the need to look into the laws you speak of, and will leave that research to you.
You mention that it would be "about six miles from First Water to Willow Springs...". What trail do you think they would take to make up that distance? Could the trip be made in three and a one half hours? There are a few different ways to make that trip, which ones have you tried?
Surely you are kidding when you suggest the could have gone over West Boulder Saddle from Carney Spring.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
It's interesting to see someone who's mind is open to what might have taken place, rather than what we have been assured did take place.
To find Willow Canyon, you would need to take a short trip N/W of First Water Ranch. I doubt you are alone in not knowing it's location.
You are probably not going to get very far quoting Sims Ely. The very best authority on this may be Greg Davis or Dr. Glover. Dr. Glover tells us that they started into the mountains from First Water Ranch. In his "Notes, Sources and Further Readings", he does not mention a source for this part of the story. I have no doubt that S.C. has the source(s) he mentions.
Wiz,
"OK, how about this. Barry Storm tells the same story in Thunder God's Gold. He cites his source as Abe Reid, who in turn claimed to have gotten the information directly from Keenan and Purnell.
Do you have any sources longer in the tooth than that to offer?"
Sorry Wiz, I thought I mentioned Sims Ely as a source. If you want to use Barry Storm as a source, I could hardly blame you. You might want to consider Barry Goldwater's opinion of the man before you hang your hat on his honesty.
After looking into that bit of history, you might want to see what you can dig up on Ely's reputation. "And, don't concern yourself over the condition of my panties. In fact, don't be thinking about them at all. It's unnatural. We have laws in this state!"
As for that statement, it's just an expression and has nothing to do with the actuall "condition" of your underwear. I have never felt the need to look into the laws you speak of, and will leave that research to you.
You mention that it would be "about six miles from First Water to Willow Springs...". What trail do you think they would take to make up that distance? Could the trip be made in three and a one half hours? There are a few different ways to make that trip, which ones have you tried?
Surely you are kidding when you suggest the could have gone over West Boulder Saddle from Carney Spring.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Willow Canyon
Wow, you are giving me a lot to respond to.Joe Ribaudo wrote:
Sorry Wiz, I thought I mentioned Sims Ely as a source. If you want to use Barry Storm as a source, I could hardly blame you. You might want to consider Barry Goldwater's opinion of the man before you hang your hat on his honesty.
"And, don't concern yourself over the condition of my panties. In fact, don't be thinking about them at all. It's unnatural. We have laws in this state!"
As for that statement, it's just an expression and has nothing to do with the actuall "condition" of your underwear. I have never felt the need to look into the laws you speak of, and will leave that research to you.
You mention that it would be "about six miles from First Water to Willow Springs...". What trail do you think they would take to make up that distance? Could the trip be made in three and a one half hours? There are a few different ways to make that trip, which ones have you tried?
Surely you are kidding when you suggest the could have gone over West Boulder Saddle from Carney Spring.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
First, I know Storm's reputation. But, his Notes of Authentication (or whatever he called them) in his first edition of TGG are often cited as sources for various things. That's where I got that statement. As with everything in this business, you can believe it or not.
I've read Ely's book several times. There's as much hearsay, tall tales, and B.S. in there as there is in Storm's book. Storm was just more of a schlockmeister.
As for the expression: It's a JOKE, son, a JOKE! I'm pitchin' but you ain't catchin'! Don't go getting sensitive on me, or you won't be any fun any more.
I think I already outlined in great detail the route that would take you to Willow Springs from First Water in about six miles. Re-read my post, or look at a map. It's pretty obvious. You of all people should be familiar with it. As for three and 1/2 hours, I don't know where you got that number, but yes, I think it could be done, even on foot.
I have personally never been as far as Willow Spring. I've been within maybe a half-mile of it several times, from both directions. From First Water as I mentioned (a rainstorm turned us back), from Peralta (didn't feel like going the extra distance that day), and yes, from Carney Springs (twice: once while traversing the ridgeline; once on a day hike and I ran out of time). So the spring proper has eluded me thus far only due to circumstances, but I'm not concerned.
I mentioned the Carney Springs route only as an alternative route that would have been roughly six miles, maybe less. It does seem preposterous that anyone would pack in a tourist that way.
Why do you ask? What routes have you tried?
Come to think of it, you haven't said anywhere in this thread what you or your friend think the route was. Would you care to contribute something to your own topic? Has it turned out, as I always suspected it would, that you are indeed the "lone nut"?
Gentleman,
I stand corrected. I went back and checked my file of newspaper articles on the Ruth disappearnce. It appears I was confused.
First Water is mentioned. But in the context of the starting point - or base camp - of the search parties. Not Ruth.
I also found several articles stating that Ruth and "guides" started out from Florence. Which can't be right. I can only assume that because the Quarter Circle U Ranch was close to Florence Junction (???) that the reporter mentioned that as the starting point.
So, in my old feebled late forty-ish mind, the two references merged and seemed to confirm Thomas Glover's statment in his book.
Thus, I am wrong, and humbly acknowledge so. However, that is not to say that Thomas Glover does not have something to the contrary that indicates Ruth did leave from First Water. There could very well be something. But, in the articles I have, nothing states that.
However, it seems Ruth might have done that for the logistics reasons Wiz mentioned. If it was easier to go in that way, why not do that?
S.C.
I stand corrected. I went back and checked my file of newspaper articles on the Ruth disappearnce. It appears I was confused.
First Water is mentioned. But in the context of the starting point - or base camp - of the search parties. Not Ruth.
I also found several articles stating that Ruth and "guides" started out from Florence. Which can't be right. I can only assume that because the Quarter Circle U Ranch was close to Florence Junction (???) that the reporter mentioned that as the starting point.
So, in my old feebled late forty-ish mind, the two references merged and seemed to confirm Thomas Glover's statment in his book.
Thus, I am wrong, and humbly acknowledge so. However, that is not to say that Thomas Glover does not have something to the contrary that indicates Ruth did leave from First Water. There could very well be something. But, in the articles I have, nothing states that.
However, it seems Ruth might have done that for the logistics reasons Wiz mentioned. If it was easier to go in that way, why not do that?
S.C.
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Joe Ribaudo
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No Need
S.C.,
No need to apologize. You are one of the "few" people we can always rely on to tell us the facts. That does not mean you will never make a mistake.
This thread is not really important to any of the people who have offered their opinions. After all, what difference can it make? I did not start the thread to discover some earthshattering clue. It is only an historical point for me. Trying to get the story straight. As I have said before: "History gets changed one word at a time". While the correct story may be as Dr. Glover tells it, I have a feeling it may be wrong. That version has been accepted for many years and I am not finding fault with him, or anyone else. Like the Two Soldiers story, I am only offering another direction to start from.
Wiz,
I did not miss your joke. Did you miss my
You did not outline your route from First Water to Willow Spring at all.
The three and 1/2 hours came from Ruth's letter to his family.
When you made your trip, can I assume you were on foot? Do you believe the same trip could be made on horseback? I am not saying it couldn't, just seeking an opinion.
I will state my own opinion when everyone who wants to get their own two cents in, has done so. I assume Ron will make a comment eventually. This is not a quiz where some will have the correct answer and some will not. Their is no correct answer, and without an eyewitness, I doubt their ever will be.
I will cease teasing you, as it has a tendency to make you overlook my or my . Just trying to keep things light.
I really don't want to spoil what would probably be a good friendship if we should ever meet face to face.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
No need to apologize. You are one of the "few" people we can always rely on to tell us the facts. That does not mean you will never make a mistake.
This thread is not really important to any of the people who have offered their opinions. After all, what difference can it make? I did not start the thread to discover some earthshattering clue. It is only an historical point for me. Trying to get the story straight. As I have said before: "History gets changed one word at a time". While the correct story may be as Dr. Glover tells it, I have a feeling it may be wrong. That version has been accepted for many years and I am not finding fault with him, or anyone else. Like the Two Soldiers story, I am only offering another direction to start from.
Wiz,
I did not miss your joke. Did you miss my
You did not outline your route from First Water to Willow Spring at all.
The three and 1/2 hours came from Ruth's letter to his family.
When you made your trip, can I assume you were on foot? Do you believe the same trip could be made on horseback? I am not saying it couldn't, just seeking an opinion.
I will state my own opinion when everyone who wants to get their own two cents in, has done so. I assume Ron will make a comment eventually. This is not a quiz where some will have the correct answer and some will not. Their is no correct answer, and without an eyewitness, I doubt their ever will be.
I will cease teasing you, as it has a tendency to make you overlook my
or my . Just trying to keep things light.I really don't want to spoil what would probably be a good friendship if we should ever meet face to face.
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Does this look familiar? I still haven't seen your theory.Wiz wrote:Joe,
I've always been under the impression they came in from First Water on what's now the Dutchman's trail, maybe or maybe not took the cutoff at Parker pass, and then went down West Boulder Canyon.
Is that the same theory one of you holds?
"I really don't want to spoil what would probably be a good friendship if we should ever meet face to face."
Now don't go getting soft on me, either! Next thing I know you'll be posting another Hallmark card.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Hallmark
Wiz,
There is no question that I will post something like a Hallmark Card sometime in the future. The only real question is, will the sentiment expressed be done in a manner which would make a good card? The fact that you recognized the intent of my post, shows it must have been close to what I wanted. I am not sure that Peter appreciated the message, or like you, thought it inappropriate. That will not change me or my style.
Sorry I missed your described route to Willow Spring. I assume you must dismiss the "summit overlooking Weaver's Needle" as something Ely dreamed up on his own.
I like Thirsty's Carney Spring theory, which you echoed, kind of. At what point on that trail do you think the animals could not make it, or do you think they would have made it all the way with a little encouragement?
I believe we would become very good friends if we were ever to spend some time together. We have some common interests and much of what I have said to you was done for effect and not heartfelt. I can easily understand if that is not your own position. It often takes some strong opposing opinions to make a good conversations. If everyone just nods their heads and smiles all the time we would find a lot less to discuss.
Who here would have known it was common to cross the Salt south of Fort McDowell, if I haden't gotten into such a contentious debate with Peter concerning the Two Soldiers and their possible choices for making that trip?
The old stories have not led anyone to a treasure or mine in the Superstitions, so it might not be a bad idea to assume we have not always gotten the true "facts". No matter how much "evidence" we find in our favorite areas, if we are following in other searchers footsteps, it is likely we will only find what they found.
I believe, when it comes to the LDM, there are no trails which have not been traveled and many times at that.
Respectfully,
Joe
There is no question that I will post something like a Hallmark Card sometime in the future. The only real question is, will the sentiment expressed be done in a manner which would make a good card? The fact that you recognized the intent of my post, shows it must have been close to what I wanted. I am not sure that Peter appreciated the message, or like you, thought it inappropriate. That will not change me or my style.
Sorry I missed your described route to Willow Spring. I assume you must dismiss the "summit overlooking Weaver's Needle" as something Ely dreamed up on his own.
I like Thirsty's Carney Spring theory, which you echoed, kind of. At what point on that trail do you think the animals could not make it, or do you think they would have made it all the way with a little encouragement?
I believe we would become very good friends if we were ever to spend some time together. We have some common interests and much of what I have said to you was done for effect and not heartfelt. I can easily understand if that is not your own position. It often takes some strong opposing opinions to make a good conversations. If everyone just nods their heads and smiles all the time we would find a lot less to discuss.
Who here would have known it was common to cross the Salt south of Fort McDowell, if I haden't gotten into such a contentious debate with Peter concerning the Two Soldiers and their possible choices for making that trip?
The old stories have not led anyone to a treasure or mine in the Superstitions, so it might not be a bad idea to assume we have not always gotten the true "facts". No matter how much "evidence" we find in our favorite areas, if we are following in other searchers footsteps, it is likely we will only find what they found.
I believe, when it comes to the LDM, there are no trails which have not been traveled and many times at that.
Respectfully,
Joe
>>Who here would have known it was common to cross the Salt south of Fort McDowell, if I haden't gotten into such a contentious debate with Peter concerning the Two Soldiers and their possible choices for making that trip? <<
Actually Joe what you neglected to mention in your McDowell Canyon theory was that Summerhayes was approaching Camp McDowell from the WEST (specifically Yuma). The Soldiers, of course were headed EAST and unlikely to use that crossing or skirt around the western perimeter of the Supersttions, no matter how much you wish that might be so.
P
Actually Joe what you neglected to mention in your McDowell Canyon theory was that Summerhayes was approaching Camp McDowell from the WEST (specifically Yuma). The Soldiers, of course were headed EAST and unlikely to use that crossing or skirt around the western perimeter of the Supersttions, no matter how much you wish that might be so.
P
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Joe Ribaudo
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Correction?
Peter,
Thank you for your response to my comment.
Martha Summerhayes is someone I have a great deal of respect for. That respect came from numerous readings of the account of her life as an "Army Wife". I don't know how much effort you have put into your own understanding of her story, but I can assure you I have put a great deal into my own.
While it is true that the Summerhayes party traveled from Yuma to Fort McDowell, that is about as close to what happened as you get.
"Camps were made at Stanwix, Oatman's Flat, and Gila Bend. There we left the river, which makes a mighty loop at this point, and struck across the plains to Maricopa Wells. The last day's march took us across the Gila River, over the Maricopa desert, and brought us to the Salt River. We forded it at sundown, rested our animals a half hour or so, and drove through the MacDowell canon in the dark of the evning, nine miles more to the post. A day's march of forty-five miles." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
I don't expect someone from Long Island to follow all of this, but a carefull reading of Martha's account give a pretty good idea of where they had to ford the Salt River. Since you have confused Florence Junction with the city of Florence in the past, we will understand if you loose your way to the outhouse on occasion. After crossing the Salt, they were not approaching Fort McDowell from the west. The real clue in all of this is the "nine miles more to the post" after fording the Salt River.
If you read all of "Vanished Arizona" you will find that Martha crossed the Salt River four times, at least.
If there is someone else here who may be familiar with the trails used in those days, now would be a perfect time to chime in. I could always be mistaken.
If the best trail from Fort McDowell too Pinal was what the Two Soldiers are said to have taken, why didn't they just take the stage line that traveled that route? Even if you have never driven Hwy. 60 from Apache Junction, a quick look at any road map or topo should convince you of the best way to get to Pinal from Fort McDowell.
Peter, it is second nature for me to look at a topo and judge the terrain on it. I have been doing it since I was thirteen years old. I believe the story, as told by Jim Bark would take you to your present area of interest.
I also believe the story may be slightly skewed. That would make sense, the accepted route does not. That does not mean they did not go that way.
I don't "wish" they went by either route. I only offered an opinion that they may have traveled another route than we have been told. Many, probably before we were born, believe they walked the same trail you are walking. Those include some pretty good Dutch hunters, including my uncle.
One would think that John Chunning had the best shot at finding the Two Soldiers mine. Is it possible he did, and walked away for some reason?
In any case, good hunting.
Respectfully,
Joe
Thank you for your response to my comment.
Martha Summerhayes is someone I have a great deal of respect for. That respect came from numerous readings of the account of her life as an "Army Wife". I don't know how much effort you have put into your own understanding of her story, but I can assure you I have put a great deal into my own.
While it is true that the Summerhayes party traveled from Yuma to Fort McDowell, that is about as close to what happened as you get.
"Camps were made at Stanwix, Oatman's Flat, and Gila Bend. There we left the river, which makes a mighty loop at this point, and struck across the plains to Maricopa Wells. The last day's march took us across the Gila River, over the Maricopa desert, and brought us to the Salt River. We forded it at sundown, rested our animals a half hour or so, and drove through the MacDowell canon in the dark of the evning, nine miles more to the post. A day's march of forty-five miles." (emphasis in bold by Joe)
I don't expect someone from Long Island to follow all of this,
but a carefull reading of Martha's account give a pretty good idea of where they had to ford the Salt River. Since you have confused Florence Junction with the city of Florence in the past, we will understand if you loose your way to the outhouse on occasion. After crossing the Salt, they were not approaching Fort McDowell from the west. The real clue in all of this is the "nine miles more to the post" after fording the Salt River.If you read all of "Vanished Arizona" you will find that Martha crossed the Salt River four times, at least.
If there is someone else here who may be familiar with the trails used in those days, now would be a perfect time to chime in. I could always be mistaken.
If the best trail from Fort McDowell too Pinal was what the Two Soldiers are said to have taken, why didn't they just take the stage line that traveled that route?
Even if you have never driven Hwy. 60 from Apache Junction, a quick look at any road map or topo should convince you of the best way to get to Pinal from Fort McDowell.Peter, it is second nature for me to look at a topo and judge the terrain on it. I have been doing it since I was thirteen years old. I believe the story, as told by Jim Bark would take you to your present area of interest.
I also believe the story may be slightly skewed. That would make sense, the accepted route does not. That does not mean they did not go that way.
I don't "wish" they went by either route. I only offered an opinion that they may have traveled another route than we have been told. Many, probably before we were born, believe they walked the same trail you are walking. Those include some pretty good Dutch hunters, including my uncle.One would think that John Chunning had the best shot at finding the Two Soldiers mine. Is it possible he did, and walked away for some reason?
In any case, good hunting.
Respectfully,
Joe
Re: Hallmark
I don't believe I ever said the animals couldn't make it. My exact quote was,Joe Ribaudo wrote:I like Thirsty's Carney Spring theory, which you echoed, kind of. At what point on that trail do you think the animals could not make it, or do you think they would have made it all the way with a little encouragement?
"This is not to say they couldn't have gone in from the Carney Springs area and over the saddle into West Boulder. But that's a VERY strenuous route, and I wouldn't think experienced cowboys would choose something like that instead of an easy ride in from First Water. Possible, but very unlikely IMHO."
I'm getting worried about you, Joe. This is twice in one thread I've had to repeat myself.
PS: There is a high point on Dutchman's Trail just east of First Water Creek where you suddenly come up on a great view of the needle. I don't exactly know what Ely meant by "overlooking", but I wouldn't discount the use of poetic license in his description. I don't think he was writing to the critical Dutch hunter, but rather to the general reading audience.
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Getting Old
Wiz,
I appreciate your concern. You are, of course, correct. It must be shocking to see me making two obvious mistakes in such a short period.
Having always been right on this forum, it must really be hard to see me loosing my concentration.
I misworded that question. There should have been an "if" in there somewhere.
Where do you think the animals would have had the hardest time making the trip from Carney Spring?
Ely's statement is one of my own roadblocks in the First Water to Willow Spring route.
Respectfully,
Joe
I appreciate your concern. You are, of course, correct. It must be shocking to see me making two obvious mistakes in such a short period.
Having always been right on this forum, it must really be hard to see me loosing my concentration.
I misworded that question. There should have been an "if" in there somewhere.
Where do you think the animals would have had the hardest time making the trip from Carney Spring?
Ely's statement is one of my own roadblocks in the First Water to Willow Spring route.
Respectfully,
Joe
I do not believe Chunning found the Deering/Soldiers mine. If he had found it in place as described by Deering and the Soldiers (replete with shafts, tunnel and mine dump) I believe he would have staked claim to it and developed it as a going concern.
Ever wonder how this extensive working vanished off the face of the earth in a relatively short period of time?
In 84/85 it is found not once, but twice. How? Simply follow an old trail to the mine area. Yet just 10 years later we have folks combing the mountains for the working and they find no trace of it. These were people who had first hand knowledge from Waltz or Deering..yet they came away with nada (didnt mean corn there).
So either:
1) They all looked in the wrong place
2) Their sources were fibbing and it didnt exist
3) Someone did a dam fine job covering the shafts, tunnel and getting rid of the the dump/tailings in the mid80s-mid90s time frame
And if #3 is the correct choice (which I believe to be the case) and folks on the scene a decade later couldnt find it, what chance do we have today
100+ years later? Not a very good one, I imagine.
Maybe I will start studying them Stone Maps and look for the caches instead..be alot easier on my feet.
Nah.........
Ever wonder how this extensive working vanished off the face of the earth in a relatively short period of time?
In 84/85 it is found not once, but twice. How? Simply follow an old trail to the mine area. Yet just 10 years later we have folks combing the mountains for the working and they find no trace of it. These were people who had first hand knowledge from Waltz or Deering..yet they came away with nada (didnt mean corn there).
So either:
1) They all looked in the wrong place
2) Their sources were fibbing and it didnt exist
3) Someone did a dam fine job covering the shafts, tunnel and getting rid of the the dump/tailings in the mid80s-mid90s time frame
And if #3 is the correct choice (which I believe to be the case) and folks on the scene a decade later couldnt find it, what chance do we have today
100+ years later? Not a very good one, I imagine.
Maybe I will start studying them Stone Maps and look for the caches instead..be alot easier on my feet.
Nah.........