THE Military Trail
TGH,
From the discussions in the post on Monroy's Ranch, it seems as though there are quite a few trails open as possibilities. I spent two days driving and hicking the area from Canyon Lake to about the Peters Canyon area (without the aid of an old military map), but couldn't find an area that looked like there was any indications of an old trail. I couldn't find any point of entry that would result in being able to follow ALL of the other clues in the Holmes Manuscript details. In summary that would be; "left of the trail, up a long ridge, through a saddle, up another long ridge to a point where the 4 peaks are lined up as one with a needle in the other direction."
I haven't given up yet, but did decide to get a look at some old Military maps before I try it again. I went to the ASU library. They have a very extensive archeive of old maps (military and otherwise) of Arizona. They were stored in the Hayden Library in the Hayden Arizona Historical Foundation collection. Unfortunately, they will not be accessable until school starts because all of the maps are being transferred to the Science Library. If you're interested you can access their database of hundreds of old maps of Arizona online at "ASU.edu/lib/". You may have to play with their online query tools to get results, they are difficult to figure out at first. You can't view the maps online, but the call number list gives a detailed description of what the map contains. I guess I'll just have to be patient ultil the transfer is completed.
If you are sharing the information, I'de be interested in your opinion of which trail you believe is the correct one.
Regards, Sluicebox
From the discussions in the post on Monroy's Ranch, it seems as though there are quite a few trails open as possibilities. I spent two days driving and hicking the area from Canyon Lake to about the Peters Canyon area (without the aid of an old military map), but couldn't find an area that looked like there was any indications of an old trail. I couldn't find any point of entry that would result in being able to follow ALL of the other clues in the Holmes Manuscript details. In summary that would be; "left of the trail, up a long ridge, through a saddle, up another long ridge to a point where the 4 peaks are lined up as one with a needle in the other direction."
I haven't given up yet, but did decide to get a look at some old Military maps before I try it again. I went to the ASU library. They have a very extensive archeive of old maps (military and otherwise) of Arizona. They were stored in the Hayden Library in the Hayden Arizona Historical Foundation collection. Unfortunately, they will not be accessable until school starts because all of the maps are being transferred to the Science Library. If you're interested you can access their database of hundreds of old maps of Arizona online at "ASU.edu/lib/". You may have to play with their online query tools to get results, they are difficult to figure out at first. You can't view the maps online, but the call number list gives a detailed description of what the map contains. I guess I'll just have to be patient ultil the transfer is completed.
If you are sharing the information, I'de be interested in your opinion of which trail you believe is the correct one.
Regards, Sluicebox
TGH,
The common denominator between Monroy's Ranch and Second Water is the "old Government Trail". On page 58 of The Holmes Manuscript the Dutchman is quoted as saying; "My last few trips were made by way of the Salt River, traveling up to Monroy's ranch and taking one of the old Government trails..." Then on page 58 Second Water is also equated with the point at which he took "the old Government trail to San Carlos." So far my assumption has been based on descriptions of the military trails given in the post on Monroy's Ranch in which one of the trails is described as going East and then south into the interior of the mountains. I haven't had the luxery of actually seeing any of those maps yet. However, I suppose you may be right, there could be a trail that is heading southeast (?) into the mountains and then turning south after it reaches some point in the interior. You also bring up another good point. If he left the trail where it turns south, you would think that the mine must be close to there if he could still see the trail from his mine.
The only problem I see with the Geronimo Head area is that it doesn"t "line up" with the 4 peaks clue. Can't wait to get my hands on those old maps at ASU. I've been going through their online catalog and making a database of all the maps I want to look at as soon as they become available. Thanks for the brain tease, it's always a good idea have a little outside perspective for questioning basic assumptions.
Regards, Sluicebox
The common denominator between Monroy's Ranch and Second Water is the "old Government Trail". On page 58 of The Holmes Manuscript the Dutchman is quoted as saying; "My last few trips were made by way of the Salt River, traveling up to Monroy's ranch and taking one of the old Government trails..." Then on page 58 Second Water is also equated with the point at which he took "the old Government trail to San Carlos." So far my assumption has been based on descriptions of the military trails given in the post on Monroy's Ranch in which one of the trails is described as going East and then south into the interior of the mountains. I haven't had the luxery of actually seeing any of those maps yet. However, I suppose you may be right, there could be a trail that is heading southeast (?) into the mountains and then turning south after it reaches some point in the interior. You also bring up another good point. If he left the trail where it turns south, you would think that the mine must be close to there if he could still see the trail from his mine.
The only problem I see with the Geronimo Head area is that it doesn"t "line up" with the 4 peaks clue. Can't wait to get my hands on those old maps at ASU. I've been going through their online catalog and making a database of all the maps I want to look at as soon as they become available. Thanks for the brain tease, it's always a good idea have a little outside perspective for questioning basic assumptions.
Regards, Sluicebox
The Military / Government trail.
xx
Last edited by Aurum on Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jesse J. Feldman
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- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
trail
Hey guys,
Picket Post is the key.
Jesse
Picket Post is the key.
Jesse
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Joe Ribaudo
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"THE KEY"?
Jesse,
Perhaps Picket Post is just one of many keys. Do you discount Dr. Glover's "Military Map"? I think the conclusions from that map are a little off, but there can be no question that his map is authentic and as accurate as it can be, considering the date it was drawn. Can anyone else come up with some solid evidence for their own "Military Trail"? Can we see it?
I doubt anyone will present documentation like Tom's, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe
Perhaps Picket Post is just one of many keys. Do you discount Dr. Glover's "Military Map"? I think the conclusions from that map are a little off, but there can be no question that his map is authentic and as accurate as it can be, considering the date it was drawn. Can anyone else come up with some solid evidence for their own "Military Trail"? Can we see it?
I doubt anyone will present documentation like Tom's, but I would love to be proven wrong.
Respectfully,
Joe
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
route
Joe,
One day I will be able to show you and it will make perfect sense. We are not looking for the earliest improved route. The Dutchmen were in the Superstitions until everything went down around 1879+or-. The road you are looking for may not have been seen until 1877 when the Soldier Boy story starts. From what I gather the military wasn't totaly established, the main force, until 1874 when this area started to become secure. - Roads, ranches, mines, etc. Dutchmen clues don't have to come from 1864. Would you describe a location on outdated imformation? For all I know Jacob revealed this clue in 1891 just before he died. Lots of things changed from 1860's to 1891. Moreover, Cedar Basin and Horse Basin was Homeguard camps for the Military. The Sups. had military trails running all over. It was a huge Campaign. That all ties into Skull Cave. One of the Homeguard camps was massacred by Chief Chuntz or at least his Apache band. The military then tracked and killed them in Skull Cave, I think in 1872. Same kind of situation with Apache Leap. The key is to find the route from Ft. Mc D. to Picket P. I bet Tom K. has some of this information that can be more solid. The problem is military records are probably lost. Good luck.
Don't get me in trouble now,
Jesse
One day I will be able to show you and it will make perfect sense. We are not looking for the earliest improved route. The Dutchmen were in the Superstitions until everything went down around 1879+or-. The road you are looking for may not have been seen until 1877 when the Soldier Boy story starts. From what I gather the military wasn't totaly established, the main force, until 1874 when this area started to become secure. - Roads, ranches, mines, etc. Dutchmen clues don't have to come from 1864. Would you describe a location on outdated imformation? For all I know Jacob revealed this clue in 1891 just before he died. Lots of things changed from 1860's to 1891. Moreover, Cedar Basin and Horse Basin was Homeguard camps for the Military. The Sups. had military trails running all over. It was a huge Campaign. That all ties into Skull Cave. One of the Homeguard camps was massacred by Chief Chuntz or at least his Apache band. The military then tracked and killed them in Skull Cave, I think in 1872. Same kind of situation with Apache Leap. The key is to find the route from Ft. Mc D. to Picket P. I bet Tom K. has some of this information that can be more solid. The problem is military records are probably lost. Good luck.
Don't get me in trouble now,
Jesse
military trail
NOW Jow; Don,t start a controversy ; Jesse J. is hot on the scent of the trail. Bill 
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Joe Ribaudo
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Could Be!
Jesse,
It might be a good idea to start at the beginning. Define a "Military Trail" as you understand it. Would that be a trail that the military might have used more than once? Does it require that the trail will support animals or wagons? Would a game trail that is regularly used by the army for a
"scout" be considered a "Military Trail". Would such a trail require that it be mapped by an army topographical engineer to quallify as a "Military Trail"?
Two companies of the Fifth Cavalry and thirty Apache scouts joined forces with Captain James Burns company and his Pima scouts in the Superstition Mountains. They were looking for the camps of Chuntz and Delshay which they believed were in the Matzatzals or Four Peaks range.
"The Apaches: Eagles of the Southwest" by, Donald E. Worcester.
There is no doubt that the army spent some serious time in the Superstitions. The question would be, did they have any "camps" in the mountains, or were the moving through as quickly as possible on their "scouts"?
Can you point out any sources for documentation of "established" military trails? Dr. Glover's "military map does not mean that the trails that are shown are "Military Trails". It is possible that they are routes that are taken on a specific "scout", which had a topographical engineer along to map the event. This was not unusual.
Respectfully,
Joe
It might be a good idea to start at the beginning. Define a "Military Trail" as you understand it. Would that be a trail that the military might have used more than once? Does it require that the trail will support animals or wagons? Would a game trail that is regularly used by the army for a
"scout" be considered a "Military Trail". Would such a trail require that it be mapped by an army topographical engineer to quallify as a "Military Trail"?
Two companies of the Fifth Cavalry and thirty Apache scouts joined forces with Captain James Burns company and his Pima scouts in the Superstition Mountains. They were looking for the camps of Chuntz and Delshay which they believed were in the Matzatzals or Four Peaks range.
"The Apaches: Eagles of the Southwest" by, Donald E. Worcester.
There is no doubt that the army spent some serious time in the Superstitions. The question would be, did they have any "camps" in the mountains, or were the moving through as quickly as possible on their "scouts"?
Can you point out any sources for documentation of "established" military trails? Dr. Glover's "military map does not mean that the trails that are shown are "Military Trails". It is possible that they are routes that are taken on a specific "scout", which had a topographical engineer along to map the event. This was not unusual.
Respectfully,
Joe
military trails
Joe; Jesse J.; I wonder what the JAKE would call a military Trail??? Bill 
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Jesse J. Feldman
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- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Trail
Joe, Bill,
Bill, I wrote this before I saw your message. That is where this is headed.
First of all, don't get to stuck on military trail, military trail, military trail. I do believe this route was used alot by military, from Post to Post, until it became no longer neccesary. - Then what happens to it? Is it a military trail? Half wagon, half trail? How long do people call it a military trail? - Or does some other business opportunity open up for the route? Ranching, Mining, Woodcutting? Probably will be called the Military Trail long after Military abandons it. - But on a map? Is it only used when the Homeguard is in the Sups.? And then not really needed for Military? - Probably. Once the Cleansing Campaign was over - what then. No Indians, no problem Mexicans or Spanairds. There was supposedly wild cows all over the Sups. left from Mex. The next era is land of opportunity. Was it a Military trail that someone improved later, using slave labor, for supply wagons? 1880+or-? So you can see how some great Military Trail gets lost. - esp. when the archives of such is burnt, lost, shuffled. Extermination and suppresion of several societies is very touchy at best. Some things are better left under the carpet. Yes, I believe there were Military outposts - supply camps that the Homeguard kept in the Sups. I think one of B. Goldwaters' realatives hauled supplies for them. I forgot his first name. Ruth - I believe knew where these records were. Don't discredit him as a stumble bum. He had info that the locals new nothing about. Homeguard Caches from Military records. I bet that will throw everyone for a loop. Gassler was onto Ruth, so that may explain what he was looking for or found. Some clues have nothing to do with a mine. More about that later!
Everything ties into each other. I have written a small book on such, not complete yet. Don't know when I will print. It may answer some questions and give life to more research.
Good find Joe. Is that the only reference to the Sups.?
Don't get me started on a hole I can't get out of,
Jesse
Bill, I wrote this before I saw your message. That is where this is headed.
First of all, don't get to stuck on military trail, military trail, military trail. I do believe this route was used alot by military, from Post to Post, until it became no longer neccesary. - Then what happens to it? Is it a military trail? Half wagon, half trail? How long do people call it a military trail? - Or does some other business opportunity open up for the route? Ranching, Mining, Woodcutting? Probably will be called the Military Trail long after Military abandons it. - But on a map? Is it only used when the Homeguard is in the Sups.? And then not really needed for Military? - Probably. Once the Cleansing Campaign was over - what then. No Indians, no problem Mexicans or Spanairds. There was supposedly wild cows all over the Sups. left from Mex. The next era is land of opportunity. Was it a Military trail that someone improved later, using slave labor, for supply wagons? 1880+or-? So you can see how some great Military Trail gets lost. - esp. when the archives of such is burnt, lost, shuffled. Extermination and suppresion of several societies is very touchy at best. Some things are better left under the carpet. Yes, I believe there were Military outposts - supply camps that the Homeguard kept in the Sups. I think one of B. Goldwaters' realatives hauled supplies for them. I forgot his first name. Ruth - I believe knew where these records were. Don't discredit him as a stumble bum. He had info that the locals new nothing about. Homeguard Caches from Military records. I bet that will throw everyone for a loop. Gassler was onto Ruth, so that may explain what he was looking for or found. Some clues have nothing to do with a mine. More about that later!
Everything ties into each other. I have written a small book on such, not complete yet. Don't know when I will print. It may answer some questions and give life to more research.
Good find Joe. Is that the only reference to the Sups.?
Don't get me started on a hole I can't get out of,
Jesse
Last edited by Jesse J. Feldman on Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
military trail
If the Jake had not been to his mine in 20 years as he supposedly said, this I beleive to be true, then his military trail or route would be from the 1872-3 ish period or before. NOW the military did have some signal outpost in the sup,s for the 1880 ish period, I think general miles used them against the apache until he settled their hash and calmed them down. YOU have a pretty good spill Jesse J. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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Good Thread!
Jesse,
Nice answer.
There are many "mentions" of the Superstitions, but no records, that I have seen, showing any lengthy campaigns in the range. The one I quoted is a bit more than most.
I have never seen "homeguard" used for, other than Indian units, any of the Regular Army in the Southwest. Can you give us a source for that name being used by units in the Superstitions.
I believe everyone will join TGH on the Ruth/Gassler connection. You will need some "iron clad" documentation to make that theory fly. If you are going to try to place Ruth or the family in the mountains earlier than has been written, you will also need some pretty good evidence.
It's obvious that you have been doing a great deal of research, I assume for your book, which shows in your recent posts.
Post to Post travel by the military would not be through the Superstitions. Scouts would go into the interior, but permanent camps would be unlikely, for obvious reasons. The Armies greatest weapon against the Apache was surprise
, we are here! That was especially true in the mountains north and south of the Salt. There are many, many books, by those who participated in the campaigns, as well as documents (reports) and letters that are available to research this history.
There are a number of people who are members of this forum who, collectively, know more about this subject than we could gather in a lifetime. The ones that I know of, would be: Aurum, Dr. Glover, Greg Davis, S.C. and Peter. Each of these men, for their own reasons, have pursued various aspects of this topic. We would all be enriched if they could find the time to join the conversation, but Christmas is a slow time for this site.
A "supply camp" in the Superstition Mountains seems unlikely, from a military point of view. It is also not written of or documented in any of the books I have seen. I hate to say it, but is there a source? Your comment seems to indicate that it is just an opinion.
Respectfully,
Joe
Nice answer.
There are many "mentions" of the Superstitions, but no records, that I have seen, showing any lengthy campaigns in the range. The one I quoted is a bit more than most.
I have never seen "homeguard" used for, other than Indian units, any of the Regular Army in the Southwest. Can you give us a source for that name being used by units in the Superstitions.
I believe everyone will join TGH on the Ruth/Gassler connection. You will need some "iron clad" documentation to make that theory fly. If you are going to try to place Ruth or the family in the mountains earlier than has been written, you will also need some pretty good evidence.
It's obvious that you have been doing a great deal of research, I assume for your book, which shows in your recent posts.
Post to Post travel by the military would not be through the Superstitions. Scouts would go into the interior, but permanent camps would be unlikely, for obvious reasons. The Armies greatest weapon against the Apache was surprise
, we are here! That was especially true in the mountains north and south of the Salt. There are many, many books, by those who participated in the campaigns, as well as documents (reports) and letters that are available to research this history. There are a number of people who are members of this forum who, collectively, know more about this subject than we could gather in a lifetime. The ones that I know of, would be: Aurum, Dr. Glover, Greg Davis, S.C. and Peter. Each of these men, for their own reasons, have pursued various aspects of this topic. We would all be enriched if they could find the time to join the conversation, but Christmas is a slow time for this site.
A "supply camp" in the Superstition Mountains seems unlikely, from a military point of view. It is also not written of or documented in any of the books I have seen. I hate to say it, but is there a source?
Your comment seems to indicate that it is just an opinion.Respectfully,
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
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- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Walter - Mason
TGH,
I was wrong. It was late. - But I do believe Walter was passed Ruth's info somehow. Common friends, his own findings, etc. Maybe Tex Barkley? Military records that he was privilege to just after Ruth?
I do believe the Soldier Boys found a rich deposit in 1877 becouse of the Charles Mason story and evidence. Why do you belive it has to be 83-84?
Respectfully,
Jesse
I was wrong. It was late. - But I do believe Walter was passed Ruth's info somehow. Common friends, his own findings, etc. Maybe Tex Barkley? Military records that he was privilege to just after Ruth?
I do believe the Soldier Boys found a rich deposit in 1877 becouse of the Charles Mason story and evidence. Why do you belive it has to be 83-84?
Respectfully,
Jesse
military trail
tgh; I didn,t mean the GEN. himself ran around the sup,s BUT he was comander of the troop,s that did? He was the one who brought the Jeronimo in for trial... OR comanded the ones that did. HE gave the orders. Bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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The Dutchmen?
All,
I am a little surprised that no one mentioned the terms that Jesse used in his post from 6pm Tuesday. I assume he did it on purpose since he made more than one such reference.
Anyone have some information on the "Dutchmen"? "The Dutchmen were in the Superstitions until everything went down around
1879+or-."
I should think this needs to be a topic of it's own.
Respectfully,
Joe
I am a little surprised that no one mentioned the terms that Jesse used in his post from 6pm Tuesday. I assume he did it on purpose since he made more than one such reference.
Anyone have some information on the "Dutchmen"? "The Dutchmen were in the Superstitions until everything went down around
1879+or-."
I should think this needs to be a topic of it's own.
Respectfully,
Joe
Military trail
Joe; Yes I seen that date I thought he was alittle late with that DATE BUT was holding off to see where he was going with his spill or story... bill
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Joe Ribaudo
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OK
Bill,
"You can lead a horse to water........"
Good to see you are still alert, what with the dementia and all.
Respectfully,
Joe
"You can lead a horse to water........"
Good to see you are still alert, what with the dementia and all. Respectfully,
Joe
military trail
Joe I am not aquainted with J.J. so I didn,t want to say anything to offend him. I want to help him. So I was watching you work with him. He seems like a nice guy. I didn,t want to make the whiners squill and bleet and dirty themselves.. We got our 1st snow storm today a big 2 inches of it. Everyone was in a dither over it. We do not get that much snow anymore. We do get bad assed ice storm,s tho, It get so cold the trees and telephone poles EXPLODE. bill
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
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- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
BIG STORY
Hello All,
I hope this tall tale gives you some ideas.
In 1864 General Carleton, Kit Carson, and Gov. Goodwin directed troops from many forts to converge into Pinal and Sup. Mts. for massive campaign against all - regardless of ancestory. The Pinal Apaches was a little part of this. Postons Papagos, Elias' Mexicans, Walkers Pimas, Woolseys Maricopas, Weavers French and Germans, Grooms with California Indians, Chamberlans Shoshones, Carson with Chiveras, Lt. Bourke, Cap. Burns, Cap. Urmy, Oscar Hutton - all at Eden. Eden is the name of the Homeguard Camp in the Sups. They raided Peralta Alta, Blackpoint, Mining villages of upper Queen Creek such as Roblas Ranch, and Gonzales Station, Los Almos, Cienega, Prieta Negra, then Tonto Basin, Globe, and White River areas. - Spanish - Mexican towns, villages, mines, farms. Time for cleansing and not just Apaches.
The Gov's right hand men were of course Poston, Woolsey, Walker, and Weaver. They were the seasoned Scalpers at this time period and had a plan. I know Weaver died in 68 or about, so don't give me any lip about - Ha, Ha your wrong - or there is no such record. Just listen to the story! This is not a struggle of who is righter. This is mainly for Joe's head to start spinning and give him a fresh look at Adolf R. The Scalpers had the Pima Homeguard dig out caves and hiding places for gold, silver coins, jewlry, religious items etc. that were recovered from Spanish and Mexican towns, villages, mines. They stockpiled for six years. The homeguard moved from Cedar Spr. and Horse Basin to Indian Garden for safety. They were massacred by Chief Chuntz while all scouts were gone. Almost all records of the caches were lost.
Ruth knew of two large caches and a small one described in U.S. Dept. of Int. Library Archives. The largest cache near Weavers Needle.
If you don't understand a word of this go back to my posts under Ron and also Jesse.
Goodnight,
Jesse
I hope this tall tale gives you some ideas.
In 1864 General Carleton, Kit Carson, and Gov. Goodwin directed troops from many forts to converge into Pinal and Sup. Mts. for massive campaign against all - regardless of ancestory. The Pinal Apaches was a little part of this. Postons Papagos, Elias' Mexicans, Walkers Pimas, Woolseys Maricopas, Weavers French and Germans, Grooms with California Indians, Chamberlans Shoshones, Carson with Chiveras, Lt. Bourke, Cap. Burns, Cap. Urmy, Oscar Hutton - all at Eden. Eden is the name of the Homeguard Camp in the Sups. They raided Peralta Alta, Blackpoint, Mining villages of upper Queen Creek such as Roblas Ranch, and Gonzales Station, Los Almos, Cienega, Prieta Negra, then Tonto Basin, Globe, and White River areas. - Spanish - Mexican towns, villages, mines, farms. Time for cleansing and not just Apaches.
The Gov's right hand men were of course Poston, Woolsey, Walker, and Weaver. They were the seasoned Scalpers at this time period and had a plan. I know Weaver died in 68 or about, so don't give me any lip about - Ha, Ha your wrong - or there is no such record. Just listen to the story! This is not a struggle of who is righter. This is mainly for Joe's head to start spinning and give him a fresh look at Adolf R. The Scalpers had the Pima Homeguard dig out caves and hiding places for gold, silver coins, jewlry, religious items etc. that were recovered from Spanish and Mexican towns, villages, mines. They stockpiled for six years. The homeguard moved from Cedar Spr. and Horse Basin to Indian Garden for safety. They were massacred by Chief Chuntz while all scouts were gone. Almost all records of the caches were lost.
Ruth knew of two large caches and a small one described in U.S. Dept. of Int. Library Archives. The largest cache near Weavers Needle.
If you don't understand a word of this go back to my posts under Ron and also Jesse.
Goodnight,
Jesse
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RU Kidding
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