Why Not

[zentull]

I would go back the afternoon prior to Waltzs death. I would hang with Petrasch, steal his notes and drawings before he lost them, get him drunk( thats the easy part of this plan), extract a little info, grab a dancing girl afterwards, have a little fun. Early in the morning I would follow Holmes and Roberts in to hear whatever was actually said. This would give me the most accurate info and allow me to separate wheat and chaffe. The notebook maps and clues from Petrasch would make a lot more sense first hand to all of us now, more so than to any of them then.

Lets just say I catch up that morning with Holmes and Roberts and introduce myself as someone who knew Waltz from a mining camp. Certain facts we know know would warm up Roberts and then you could understand Holmes actual relationship with Waltz and what he knew of him. Same goes for julia. Of course I would have an Ice cream and then check out Waltzs old adobe ruins. Thats more for curiosity than anything else.

It could dispel so much of the fog around the history of the legend. Was there a Weiss? Did Holmes really hear anything relevant? what were their personalities really like at that point in time? Would we trust their view points and reports or were they all elaborating on something that they convinced themselves of later? Much of whats been written on the subject could be invalidated in that 24 hours. It is one of the few facts we have an actual date and the whereabouts of some principle figures.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zentull,

You have been absent too long. I have missed your measured responses to some of our more contoversial topics.

You have made a good case for your 24 hour period.

Welcome back.

Respectfully,

Joe

[zentull]

Thanks Joe, absent from posting but still reading regularly. Seems like I spend most of my free time cleaning mud off the truck undercarriage. Never thought I would be wishing for it to stop raining. This topic was too fun to pass by.

Thought of kidnapping Waltz the night of the shooting by his adobe. Didn't think we could get close to the mine though in 24 hours. He was propably too cantankerous to interrogate anyhow. Now I just got to build a time machine....that shouldn't be too hard..Right?

[TGH]

While Chalipun was possibly involved in the Massacre of '64, I think it more likely that Nanni-Chaddi was the leader of the Yavapai in the fight, and most likely instigated the events leading up to the "massacre" at the behest of his Gilaeno Apache allies who had a larger stake in the proceedings than the Yavapai did.

The fact that the Gilaeno arrived on the scene quickly and in numbers speaks volumes, as they were not really local to the area....certainly not as close as the Pinaleno (possibly Apache Jacks band) or Tontos. I believe the entire fight from start to finish was carefully planned and orchestrated by both the Yavapai and Gilaeno Apache.

TGH

[Joe Ribaudo]

TGH,

I suppose that depends on which band of Gilenos you are talking about.
There were "Gilenos" who were "local".

The real question would be: What is your source for this story? Even the Peralta Family of today is unsure of the exact year, and you are giving us the "facts" of what happened.

Respectfully,

Joe

[TGH]

Joe

You are quite correct about the various Gilaeno bands.

My sources, are of course, large black birds.

TGH

[Joe Ribaudo]

TGH,

Ah-ha! The Black Legion raises it's ugly beak again. Were they also your source for the spelling of "Gileno"?

Just the answer I expected. No answer.

Respectfully,

Joe

[TGH]

If you expected no answer...then why did you ask?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Because, I am wrong on occasion.

[Thomas Glover]

Zentull,

Thanks for having an interesting take on the question, honest and original. Does this mean that you believe that Rhinehart knew the “facts” (whatever they were) and that the drawings he had were sequential? I am not so sure that either is true, but it is just my opinion.

Most respectfully,

Thomas

PS: It is always interesting to me that some cite Dick Holmes’ failure to find the mine as evidence that Waltz must not have really told him anything, and that therefore the people with the best information were Julia and Rhinehart. Yet, neither of these people ever found the mine either. In one case the failure of one party means they knew nothing, while the failure of the other party means they knew everything/something?

[TGH]

As I have said in the past the failure to find the mine at that time most likely was due to the absence of place names. Its easy today to give directions. eg: Start at Tortilla Trailhead by the Windmill, hike past Kane Spring to Peters Saddle then drop into Peters Canyon until you reach Cottonwood Canyon and make a right. Or simply direct someone to the 3 Red Hills who has never been in the wilderness before without using any names.......

Try giving those same directions without using any place names. Or even better, try giving those directions while you are on deaths door suffering from emphysemia.....

[Joe Ribaudo]

TGH,

Did you also hear that Waltz had "emphysemia" from some "big black birds"? You do have some great "original facts" in your bag.

The reason Holmes could not find the mine, is because Waltz told him nothing. He had to make up that bit of fiction to give some support to his story that Waltz gave him the gold under the bed. He then followed Julia when she tried to find the mine. Same as he did with Waltz.

Landmark names had nothing to do with their failure to find Walta'z hidden location.

Why do I suspect that is what happened? Because when Brownie started his search, it was on the main mountain. If he had a clue that the mine was anywhere north and east of Bluff Spring Mountain, he would have started there. They all followed Julia. Problem was, she had just a tad more information than they did. You will have to figure out the rest of that story for yourself.

There is always the possibility that many of the searchers found the mine, and it had been worked out. No one, even today, would say they had found the LDM if it was a worked out hole in the ground. I believe there is some evidence that many of them did find the mine and walked away from the location, still looking. That assumes that it was a mine and not just a cache of gold that came from another location.

I could just write "wrong" every time you make a point, but that is just too simple. The fact that you are usually right would also hinder that approach. I really prefer to attempt a little reasoning to explain why I think someone may be wrong.

Tom,

Does any of this begin to make sense to you?

All of the above is my personal opinion, which means that if you add $5.00 you can get an average cup of coffee.

Respectfully,

Joe

[zentull]

It took 3 heinikens and twice that many cigarettes to come to that time frame. I am open to the idea, after meeting the principle characters it might be not one of them had a clue. I figure it was the one point in time that we all know where Waltz, Julia, Petrasch and Holmes were. I figure after re reading all the books available to me on the subject and having so much of it stuck in my brain, that something said by any of them would make more sense in real time then after so many years of retelling and editing. Once someone is dead, history rewrites itself so often we cannot even imagine the truth in some instances. There are no journals that I know of from Julia,Petrasch or Dick Holmes directly. My own Dad didn't know that his great grandfather and others were buried in a cemetary on a hill behind his home. He gave me a rifle and old bible that turned out to be my great great grandfathers. He thought about throwing that stuff out because he had know idea where they came from. After opening the bible I came across braids of hair, Hand written contracts and all kind of odd info from the mid 1800s. His knowledge of things was limited to what he overheard as a boy. After all these years none of the old cowboys I spoke to as a boy really heard or knew much about the LDM. They treated it as a tourist trap for Apache Junction. After all besides 4 billion U Totems lining the road what else did they have? During the seventies the misinformation was incredible. How much can any of us really believe? Theres junk in my head thats hard to clear out just because it was such a good memory. So I just figure that 24 hours is to precious to waste on blind chance that you might be in the right place at the right time. Your books as well as others on the subject have changed my perspective at times just in a single passage. How do I know which way to glass for a buck? Sometimes its instinctive. Sometimes I am wrong, but sometimes I am right. My Instincts tell me this is the trail to follow. Anyhow I get an Ice cream and a night on the town and an entirely different perspective on the story which none of us will really know. One other important point I considered was the information from 2 people without mining backgrounds would be more open and less likely to jump to conclusions, than someone more familiar with the area and a mining background. Holmes own version could be tainted by what he thought was meant or how he interpreted it. Many of us here have a far more extensive knowledge of the mountains now than any of them did at that given moment. I am sure if I had an open seat on the time machine there would be quite a few people here more than willing to grab a ride.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Zentull,

What Dr. Glover said.

Respectfully,

Joe