The only "draft" I am interested in occurs in April (NFL) and in Sept (Fantasy Football).
The draft is interesting from an historical perspective, and only interesting to me because it may show there is a "Missouri" connection to Waltz.
This in turn may or may not lend some credence to some artifacts found in the mountains and the strange story of a fellow named Reed. Which in turn might confirm parts of the Holmes account.
The only information I really care about anymore has to do with very nearby, "close-in" landmarks related to the mines. Spanglers spires, Hermans "gravestone", the 3 wickiups and the 2 big boulder outcrops would be examples of these. Unfortunately, I have dozens upon dozens of those type clues, from just as many sources, so trying to sort them out and match them to todays terrain tends to be difficult.
TGH
CORBINS THE CURSE OF THE Dutchman gold
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Joe Ribaudo
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?
Peter,
You said:
"The story states that Deering followed the trail to a tunnel. And that there were workings "above and over" that were pretty well filled in."
Actually, I believe the statement was: "Above the tunnel, and further over, it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled."
I think that is different than "above and over", which seem to be the same thing. The "further over" seems to mean a horizontal distance, from the tunnel, rather than a higher elevation.
On the other hand, the two soldiers did say they "came to a tunnel that had been walled up, with working above and over."
Figuring 1/2 mph, which would be a very good pace for the area around the spring where Deering is suppposed to have camped, your question of could he have made the 6-7 mile "distance in 15 hours or so" seems possible. If you throw in the fact that Deering said he followed a "deep worn trail and it was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks han any trail I had seen in those mountains.....", he could have made the distance with ease, especially if you "correct" that distance to
3-4 miles.
Massaging the "facts" seems to be a requirement for all stories relating to the Superstitions. Perhaps that is why the mines and treasures remain hidden. They were just "rubbed the wrong way".
Respectfully,
Joe
You said:
"The story states that Deering followed the trail to a tunnel. And that there were workings "above and over" that were pretty well filled in."
Actually, I believe the statement was: "Above the tunnel, and further over, it looked as though there had been two big shafts, but they were pretty well filled."
I think that is different than "above and over", which seem to be the same thing. The "further over" seems to mean a horizontal distance, from the tunnel, rather than a higher elevation.
On the other hand, the two soldiers did say they "came to a tunnel that had been walled up, with working above and over."
Figuring 1/2 mph, which would be a very good pace for the area around the spring where Deering is suppposed to have camped, your question of could he have made the 6-7 mile "distance in 15 hours or so" seems possible. If you throw in the fact that Deering said he followed a "deep worn trail and it was so much larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks han any trail I had seen in those mountains.....", he could have made the distance with ease, especially if you "correct" that distance to
3-4 miles.
Massaging the "facts" seems to be a requirement for all stories relating to the Superstitions. Perhaps that is why the mines and treasures remain hidden. They were just "rubbed the wrong way".
Respectfully,
Joe
Actually, if you are figuring 1/2 mile per hour to cover the 6-7 miles he would have had a difficult time indeed. You have forgotten that he also needed to RETURN to his camp in the big canyon, in reality covering 12-14 miles of trail. The elevation was a killer too, he would have had to climb 1000ft vertically (give or take 100ft) then another 300-400 feet to arrive at the workings area...this over some of the worst terrain in those mtns. I just dont think he had enough time in a day (assuming he left his camp at daybreak and returned at dusk) to cover the 6-7 mile distance.
3-4 "mountain" miles is much more likely.
It wouldnt surprise me if one of the workings was horizontal with Deerings tunnel, as I believe the LDM area holds at least 3 tunnels and the shafts above, most likely more. Having seen first hand how the Mexican Mining families involved in the Superstitions dug their tunnels and shafts there is no doubt in my mind that the area the LDM resides is riddled with hidden tunnels and workings.
3-4 "mountain" miles is much more likely.
It wouldnt surprise me if one of the workings was horizontal with Deerings tunnel, as I believe the LDM area holds at least 3 tunnels and the shafts above, most likely more. Having seen first hand how the Mexican Mining families involved in the Superstitions dug their tunnels and shafts there is no doubt in my mind that the area the LDM resides is riddled with hidden tunnels and workings.
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Rough Terrain?
Peter,
Yes, I was only looking at the trip one way.
You might consider it quite a feat, but if you add in the probable fact that he only had a canteen of water (maybe), it becomes larger than life. One would think the man was an Apache.
I am not sure that it could be said that he traveled "over some of the worst terrain in the mountains." I would reserve that description for areas that have no "deep worn trail"...."larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen on those mountains".
The fact that he is supposed to have said: "I left the borro and started to follow it (the trail) and believe I followed it six or seven miles and came to the worst place I ever saw. There was a tunnel and it had been walled up.", would seem to indicate that the trail leads directly to the mine. He never says he traveled through "some of the worst terrain in those mtns.", only that the mine was located at "the worst place I ever saw."
I believe he later clarified what he meant by "the worst place I ever saw",
when he said, "it was so ghastly and creepy".
When he returned to his camp on the second day, he used a different trail, which means there are two trails to the mine, or at least the general area. Have you found a second trail which leaves the area and leads back to the spring where Deering camped?
The question of which spring he camped seems to be a key reference.
This seems to narrow that spot down a bit: "Deering said then that he went up the canyon to his camp, and the next day came over to the King."
"John asked him how far it was from the Salt River. The reply was, Oh, a mile, mile and a half, two miles."
If we assume that John Chuning was speaking about Deering's camp, as opposed to the mine, he could only have been camped at Tortilla Spring.
Considering distance, and the presence of a second trail back to Tortilla Spring, Tortilla Mountain (area) does seem like a good bet.
Respectfully,
Joe
Yes, I was only looking at the trip one way.
You might consider it quite a feat, but if you add in the probable fact that he only had a canteen of water (maybe), it becomes larger than life. One would think the man was an Apache.
I am not sure that it could be said that he traveled "over some of the worst terrain in the mountains." I would reserve that description for areas that have no "deep worn trail"...."larger and worn so much deeper in the rocks than any trail I had seen on those mountains".
The fact that he is supposed to have said: "I left the borro and started to follow it (the trail) and believe I followed it six or seven miles and came to the worst place I ever saw. There was a tunnel and it had been walled up.", would seem to indicate that the trail leads directly to the mine. He never says he traveled through "some of the worst terrain in those mtns.", only that the mine was located at "the worst place I ever saw."
I believe he later clarified what he meant by "the worst place I ever saw",
when he said, "it was so ghastly and creepy".
When he returned to his camp on the second day, he used a different trail, which means there are two trails to the mine, or at least the general area. Have you found a second trail which leaves the area and leads back to the spring where Deering camped?
The question of which spring he camped seems to be a key reference.
This seems to narrow that spot down a bit: "Deering said then that he went up the canyon to his camp, and the next day came over to the King."
"John asked him how far it was from the Salt River. The reply was, Oh, a mile, mile and a half, two miles."
If we assume that John Chuning was speaking about Deering's camp, as opposed to the mine, he could only have been camped at Tortilla Spring.
Considering distance, and the presence of a second trail back to Tortilla Spring, Tortilla Mountain (area) does seem like a good bet.
Respectfully,
Joe
Tunnels & Workings
TGH,
You said:
"Having seen first hand how the Mexican Mining families involved in the Superstitions dug their tunnels and shafts there is no doubt in my mind that the area the LDM resides is riddled with hidden tunnels and workings."
What you are looking for sounds similar to what Walter Upson described in 1940:
"four entrances to the mine"
"yards of tunnels"
"low passageways of the workings, crude timbering and the ox-cart trails were conclusive proof that the mine was developed by early day Spaniards"
Seems like there may be several areas in the Superstitions riddled with tunnels.
You said:
"Having seen first hand how the Mexican Mining families involved in the Superstitions dug their tunnels and shafts there is no doubt in my mind that the area the LDM resides is riddled with hidden tunnels and workings."
What you are looking for sounds similar to what Walter Upson described in 1940:
"four entrances to the mine"
"yards of tunnels"
"low passageways of the workings, crude timbering and the ox-cart trails were conclusive proof that the mine was developed by early day Spaniards"
Seems like there may be several areas in the Superstitions riddled with tunnels.
Corbins the curse of the dutchman gold
Armchair,
I am unfamiliar with Walter Upson. Is there some more information you could share about him and his search?
I am unfamiliar with Walter Upson. Is there some more information you could share about him and his search?
murphy
Walter Upson
Murphy,
Walter Upson was one of the many folks Barry Storm worked with prior to writing "Thunder Gods Gold". He was described as a mining engineer. The quotes for him came from a newspaper article in The Ohio Chronicle-Telegram May 5, 1940. He and Storm were given access to a newly discovered mine about "1 to 1 and quarter miles" east of Weaver's needle.
Best regards,
Shelby
Walter Upson was one of the many folks Barry Storm worked with prior to writing "Thunder Gods Gold". He was described as a mining engineer. The quotes for him came from a newspaper article in The Ohio Chronicle-Telegram May 5, 1940. He and Storm were given access to a newly discovered mine about "1 to 1 and quarter miles" east of Weaver's needle.
Best regards,
Shelby
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Helen Corbin
For anyone looking for a source, as to the statement: "we're going to get that crazy old *%#@* (Helen) ?", this might be a good place to start.
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Knun,
>> I wonder what Ghost Horse would say about the casinos?<<
He might say "Ussn works in mysterious ways"
Joe,
I have done a bit of leg work on the Ghost Horse and havent found much. The only references I could come up with related to a "horse" of anykind was an old Apache named White Horse. The Apache words for "white" and "ghost" (thlikai and chidiin) are not similar and I dont think they are the same person. This White Horse fellow also seemed to be 1/2 Mescallero , so I doubt they are the same.
Barry Storm references a "Grey Horse" in his notes of authenticity in THUNDER GODS GOLD. This Grey Horse seemed to have been still living in the 1930s, so if the Corbin story is correct, it couldnt be the same person. Course, this is Storm we are talking about.
"The problem with the information in Corbins book is that the author simply doesnt have a good grasp of her subject material. I'd take much of it with the proverbial grain of salt. As far as her Apache chapter goes....
"bine' adiih...doo dagoya' dago adanii" (loosely translated that means "shes nuts and doesnt know what shes talking about"). The poor thing..." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
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Ha'nnaa anii? Miinii naakii, doo ch'oodla da.
Matthew,
If you have a problem reading that, find a Jicarilla friend. I did not twist anyone's words here, nor add my own meaning. You will need to judge the meaning for yourself.
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo
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Knun,
>> I wonder what Ghost Horse would say about the casinos?<<
He might say "Ussn works in mysterious ways"
Joe,
I have done a bit of leg work on the Ghost Horse and havent found much. The only references I could come up with related to a "horse" of anykind was an old Apache named White Horse. The Apache words for "white" and "ghost" (thlikai and chidiin) are not similar and I dont think they are the same person. This White Horse fellow also seemed to be 1/2 Mescallero , so I doubt they are the same.
Barry Storm references a "Grey Horse" in his notes of authenticity in THUNDER GODS GOLD. This Grey Horse seemed to have been still living in the 1930s, so if the Corbin story is correct, it couldnt be the same person. Course, this is Storm we are talking about.
"The problem with the information in Corbins book is that the author simply doesnt have a good grasp of her subject material. I'd take much of it with the proverbial grain of salt. As far as her Apache chapter goes....
"bine' adiih...doo dagoya' dago adanii" (loosely translated that means "shes nuts and doesnt know what shes talking about"). The poor thing..." (Emphasis in bold by Joe)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ha'nnaa anii? Miinii naakii, doo ch'oodla da.
Matthew,
If you have a problem reading that, find a Jicarilla friend. I did not twist anyone's words here, nor add my own meaning. You will need to judge the meaning for yourself.
Nzhogo nandago,
Joe Ribaudo