Where Is The Lost Dutchman-?

[Gene Reynolds]

There are so many people in here with good reasoning - I thought it would be interesting what each person thought - and why.?

From what all of you know of the facts - - - Where do you think the mine is - North - East - South - or West of Weavers Needle and why or what is your reasoning for your answer?

There should be some very interesting answers here............

Gene Reynolds

[TGH]

Hello Gene

I do not think you will get many responses to your post....but who knows.
I doubt the LDM is south or west of the Needle....which means I believe it is north or east....lol...more or less.

P

[azdave35]

i dont think he had a mine..more like he found some of the massacre gold

[Gene Reynolds]

Maybe people either don't know enough about it or they are perhaps nervous of giving an answer that they think will give away a suspition of where it might be. Saying North, East or whatever does not give away a spot to hunt - it is merely an opinion. As Dave said, it could be the M. Grounds. People have hunted for 0ver a hundred years at exact spots and not found it - or have they? I was merely curious as to what the average person here thought - since most of you have a good deal of knowledge about it - by now I would have thought most of you would have an opinion........ Just an opinion....... not a fact. I was curious what side of the Needle most people - from all the clues or facts, etc. that there are thought it had the greatest possibility of being on - or as Dave said, - could be the Mas. Grounds. There is a lot of room for conjecture here.....

Gene

[skeelos]

For what it's worth, I think if he had a mine it is to the North and East of Weaver's Needle. I don't base that on any single clue, just sort of an overall sense from what I've read, even though that is quite limited. For example, the map in Glover's book showing reported Waltz sightings. They all seem to point in a general way to an area to the North and East of the Needle if I remember correctly.

However, I'm still not convinced that he had a mine. I still haven't heard a convincing argument for why he never staked a claim to the mine, and that in itself makes me question whether he had a mine at all. I do think he had either a mine or a cache or possibly both.

[Joe Ribaudo]

skeelos,

Like Bigfoot sightings, "Waltz" sightings should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

After Jacob's death, everyone knew him, had some kind of dealings with him, had seen him and probably attended weekly luncheons with him at the local Rotary Club.

How many of the "Waltz" sightings mentioned in Dr. Glover's book, were by people who wanted to find his mine?

Let's bring it closer to home, this topic, and assume some of the people who have or will answer this topic's questions, had a time machine. They went back to the period of time when Waltz was said to be making "yearly" trips into his "mine".

They follow Waltz into the mountains and are eventually confronted by the "mass murderer". He decides to let them live. They come back to the present and log on to the forum. Do they immediatly see Gene's question and reply: We just got back from following Waltz. He made his camp at Indian Spring". His mine must be very close to that spring.

There is your area and why.

If you were sure of your area, would you send everyone and their brother into that area to search, or would you send them to the Bradshaws?

I believe it is very possible the LDM is on the north side of Black Top Mountain. Ruths body was found there; The Cactus Marker takes you there; The Spanish "Hieroglyphics are on the mountain; A decendent of the Peraltas had claims there; The Fish Map takes you there; The Stone Maps take you there; Dale Howard found a cave entrance with gold ore stacked in the tunnel which went towards the north and, a good many knowledgeable people had claims on the mountain.

I can give you many other reasons to believe Black Top Mountain is the location of the LDM.

Don't say I never give out any important information. I just did. That's at least as good as: I saw Waltz camped at Indian Spring.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[buscar]

Hello folks

The most difficult thing for an individual to do when they’re a team is to sacrifice!

Good Teams Make Their Own Luck!

Luck is where Opportunity meets Preparedness!

buscar

[ILoveJoeRibaudo]

Thanks for giving us the location of the LDM Joe! That was a fine fine post.
Great reasoning and logic ! Please post some more ! Please feel free to answer posts addressed to others! Don't be shy. I like you. We like you. You are fine. We are heading for Black Top tommorrow. Great balls of fire, Joe.

ILoveJoeRibaudo

Hooray for Joe. Hooray !

[skeelos]

Joe,

Thanks for the reply.

Like Bigfoot sightings, "Waltz" sightings should probably be taken with a grain of salt.

No doubt. That applies to just about every clue regarding the LDM. Are there any clues related to the location of the LDM which are true beyond any reasonable doubt? Part of the problem in locating the LDM is that there are so many clues, many of them contradictory. Any single clue on its own can be torn to shreds by someone with sufficient knowledge and there are many individuals with such knowledge. At this point, I think a heuristic approach is more productive for me, and the map in Glover’s book was merely an example of that approach, not the end all be all, and I have no inclination to defend it as it would serve no purpose.

If you were sure of your area, would you send everyone and their brother into that area to search, or would you send them to the Bradshaws?

Well, maybe not their brother. I’m guessing that you meant this as a rhetorical question, but I’ll answer it nonetheless. The answer is: Depends - and I don’t mean the undergarments If the area in question was a very specific area, then maybe not, but in the broad sense of Gene’s original question, then obviously yes. As for how the question relates to the Waltz sighters, I think I sufficiently addressed that sort of issue above.

I believe it is very possible the LDM is on the north side of Black Top Mountain. Ruths body was found there; The Cactus Marker takes you there; The Spanish "Hieroglyphics are on the mountain; A decendent of the Peraltas had claims there; The Fish Map takes you there; The Stone Maps take you there; Dale Howard found a cave entrance with gold ore stacked in the tunnel which went towards the north and, a good many knowledgeable people had claims on the mountain.

That is of course if any of those things have any direct bearing on the LDM.

I can give you many other reasons to believe Black Top Mountain is the location of the LDM.

Please feel free to do so.

Don't say I never give out any important information. I just did. That's at least as good as: I saw Waltz camped at Indian Spring.

Beyond qualifying that information as your opinion, you also qualified it with “...it is very possible...” In my opinion, those words weaken all the words which follow them. Even so, it appears to me that many Dutch hunters lock onto a particular area or set of clues and it would take divine intervention to dislodge their pet theories.

[Joe Ribaudo]

skeelos,

Thanks to you, sir.

"Just about every clue" is the key phrase in your first answer. Not every clue, but "just about". That brings back a question I have posed before. What is your favorite clue? Is that clue to be taken with a a grain of salt, or do you need a five pound bag? Well.....it fits my area, is the answer.

I don't believe there is one clue that is "true beyond any reasonable doubt". I do think there are a series of clues that are more likely to be true than any others.

You are pretty perceptive. Rereading my post, I added "it is very possible", for the very reason you cite, to "weaken all the words that follow".

Your final statement is so "on the money" it is not funny. The questions to ask yourself is: Am I locked into my own "pet theories"? Are the clues I am following the "best evidence available"? Am I following the clues related by people who may have had a reason to "bend" the truth?
Last but not least, I would ask: Am I surrounded by the ghosts of Dutch Hunters who have searched here before me? Am I better than all of them? Are my clues and stories fresher?

Think about the searchers who were there at the right time - immediately after Waltz died. Every year new clues have been added to new stories.
In the timeline of LDM clues and stories, which ones are you following?

The farther you move from the time of the event, the less truth will be found in the telling of the story. It changes, one word at a time. I am not talking about the "fabricated" stories, I am talking about the ones that are true, at some point in time.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[ILoveJoeRibaudo]

Excellent , Joe, Excellent! Well thought out. Brilliant really. You really know how to think don't you ! I agree with you 100%. No make that 200%!
Your thoughts are priceless. You are good good good.

Hooray for Joe !

ILoveJoeRibaudo

really !!!!!

[WyattWestwood]

Deleted.....

[buscar]

Hello folks

Go to Member Archive view the photo (taken on Black Top Mesa) of the rock with J WALTZ and date (1888) carved on it.

buscar

[Gene Reynolds]

I am torn between 2 places - as Joe put it - that's one. The other is West Boulder Canyon. The map I have (from the Ruth house) fits Joe's idea and mine. The problem is - last night I was on the puter for 6 hours looking at all the maps (satelite and others) I found a dozen more places it could fit as well.!

My opinion - If you remember Ruth was an old man (close to 70) in bad shape - he was left without a horse at his camp - that means he was not going to walk far. He was happy there for a reason. I doubt that he wanted to go was more than a mile. It should have been north or northeast or northwest - but for water and the camp he would not go far.

Think about it........ You have all made strong points - but think about the above paragraph. I have only found 2 places - That was most likely walkable by Ruth and in the heat - by the map I have, that came from his home that fits. Remember, Ruth bought boots before going into the mountains - they were used little when his camp was found. To me that means he was already near where he wanted to go.

Sit back and re-group your thoughts and use logic along with the facts you have - he was an old man..............

Good Luck -

By the way - my computer crashed today and I lost 2 years of work and everyones e-mails - pictures - the book - etc. Every D - thing..
I am fit to be tied!!!

Gene

[Wiz]

Hello folks

Go to Member Archive view the photo (taken on Black Top Mesa) of the rock with J WALTZ and date (1888) carved on it.

buscar :)

I've seen that rock. One can just imagine the 78-year-old Waltz climbing up Black Top, clinging to the side of the mesa, and scratching his name and the date on a rock. Not!

[RU Kidding]

Gene-don't give up on your "lost" data just yet. There are data recovery services that can get data from just about any bad hard drive. Cost you some money,but may be worth it not to lose all that work!!
Randy in Phx.

[WyattWestwood]

Deleted......

[late49er]

Mr. Reynolds,

I hope you get your files back. I would like to get a copy of your book if that is possible.

The Lost Dutchman, where could it be. I would suggest one look closely in Pistol Canyon and Squaw Canyon. The issue is not what seperates the two canyons, but what connects them. They are connected in both time and space.

One thought to consider, perhaps the Dutchman was privy to several Peralta Mine locations in the Superstitutions. Perhaps he cherry picked the one he liked but visited and removed ore from several locations. This would partially explain his sightings throughout the range.

I imagine the ore box under his bed would verifty this. Suspect his ore was both epithermal and mesothermal in nature.

Regards,


Late 49er

[Joe Ribaudo]

Gene,

If you need a copy of your CD, I will be happy to mail you one.

Send me an email with your new address if you need that done.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

Interesting theory, but wouldn't the likelihood of finding a gold mine in the Superstitions be increased, to a large extent, if Waltz had a number of mines he was working there?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

[Gene Reynolds]

Joe - Thanks for your kind offer - I still have copies I can make - I just lost all of it in the computer. Plus the additional I made - all gone - don't even want to think about it or I'll go beat the D... dog again.

Mr. Late 49r - I still have a few copies left...... about half a dozen.....

You can still get them by sending a checl or money order to........

Borrego 13
P.O. Box 13
Pendergrass, GA. 30567

They are $20. plus $5.00 S&H........... I would also apreciate a small tip so I can buy an axe for this piece of s......... computer.!

Just Joking - I would rather have a grenade so I can shove it up it's A drive!!!

And for - RU kidding........... Thanks - I appreciate your advice on how to save the info.......... and taking it to a shop that can do that , - Hell - i can do that - I fix them all day long - I have about 7 systems left to sell and 35 monitors....... The problem was I was mad - this is the 3rd time - in three years - you should have heard it hit the floor when I disconnected it and threw it. I left it on the floor all night and fixed it the next day - What can you expect from an HP ! After all is was the cheapest $1800. model I could find. Next time I'll build my own - I can build a 3500 AMD for $650. Now I guess you want one too! RU Kidding..!

Later - Gene

[late49er]

Gene,

Thanks for the information. I will send a check out today. See you are in Georgia now. I grew up there and spent a lot of time in the hills of North Georgia looking for Gold. A lot of folks don`t know there was a major Gold strike there and that a U.S. Mint was established in Dahlonega.
Beautiful country. Always found color up on the Etowah river. Dad was Cherokee. Remember stories in the family about mines being covered up near Ellijay and Canton.

Joe,

Excellent question. Not sure Waltz worked the locations in a traditional sense. Let`s say the front door was pretty well closed down, but he was aware of back doors into several of the systems. This knowledge would allow Waltz to access the deposits and not have the surface exposure issue. Amazing what a mining engineer can do with a boulder. Never would have thought to use one as a door. Quite a job of balancing.

Do believe he had a favorite spot that was not really covered all that well.

Ever wonder why Waltz disappeared for months into the Superstituions?
If he was on to only one mine this would seem a bit odd. Waltz was like a kid in a candy store out there.

Of course the question arises where did Waltz get his information. Doubt he received it from the Mexicans he supposedly murdered.




Regards,

Late 49er

[Joe Ribaudo]

Late,

"Amazing what a mining engineer can do with a boulder. Never would have thought to use one as a door. Quite a job of balancing."

Interesting comment.

I assume you have heard the Dale Howard story. Are you saying you have found such a "door" in the Superstitions?

Dale's was on the south side of Black Top Mesa. He spent a lot of years trying to "refind" that balanced boulder. They were sure there was another entrance because of the draft being pulled through the shaft.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Gene Reynolds]

49er......

I live about 30 miles east of Dahlonega. Been there many times - very interesting little town....... The town square in nearly all a museum now. Gainesville is now considered part of Northern Mexico....population at last illegal count was somewhere around 40,000 and growing daily. Ya want some?

We have a creek/river a block from the house - we have found black sand - and every kind of snake in Ga. there. I have never seen a black snake so big as the one in our driveway last year as I pulled in. Over 10 feet long and as big around as a child's leg. It's against the law here to kill harmless snakes but he was so big and in my yard I didn't consider him harmless so I won't tell you the rest of the story. He won't be back! All 6 I have found in the yard this year and one in the bathtub - I tossed over the fence to bother me again one day and the 6 footer didn't want to go. Amazingly though - I picked him up by my car and he was very calm until we got to the fence - he came back twice......he tested my patients and I think he knew it and finally left.

Gold is found in many counties in Ga.- just not my county -am I lucky or what. A few years ago just south of the Capital Building in downtown Atlanta is a little creek - a kid of all things found something shinny in it and took it home to pop. I forgot how many ozs. but they moved to a better place. It was rather large.

My puter works better after getting rid of Real Player!?!!!??? What you say? Real Player always runs in the background - check it out for yourself- it's an os boot in your start up menu - and sneaks around in the dark and runs constantly without you knowing it. it deprives and slows your puter of ram/memory and you wonder why it locks up. Only took me 3 years to figure it out! I am now running at 96% and never drops below 92% now. I proved it to Tim a few hours ago and he took it off his puter as well. His is running much better as well.

If Ya'll come to Georgia any time soon - stop by and say howdy! ( and if i owe you money - I really live in Canada)

Take Care - Gene

[ILoveJoeRibaudo]

Thank you Joe for the boulder comment. We are on Black Top now looking for the Dutchman. We hope you are right. We found a bunch of boulders. They are just like big rocks. Thanks Joe. You are a-ok. As always

ILoveJoeRibaudo

Joe knows. Oh yes.