OK everyone
I think the forum has had enough of our bickering. I will attempt to end it here.
Joe,
I apologize for the "oafish" remark, although I still think you were completely out of line. I regard the report you quoted of Apache cannibalism as pure BS. You have a right to disagree. I can dig up reports from the same era (and the same people) describing all sorts of church-related miracles, apparitions, etc., which I consider no more reliable.
You display the modern white man's distain for the Native American, when you speak of how far the Apache have come in the last 100 years. You are actually saying they have advanced by adopting the ways of the white man, an idea that many will dispute, and is not true of a number of them.
But you can be sure that although you have never seen anyone in your area, you have indeed had "encounters"; and how many people you have around you is immaterial to your safety. So you may wish to be less judgmental concerning the Apache in the future. Your choice.
Peter,
It's time to let Joe off the hook and return to discussing the LDM. That's what everyone is here for, and I think this exchange of insulting posts has gone about as far as as it can without degenerating into simple name-calling.
So, I'm calling on everyone here to bury the hatchet and get back to more intellectual pursuits concerning the LDM. I hope I can get some consensus in this.
Deering Comments
OK Ma I promise to be a good boy.
Now that thats settled here's a quote from Colin Powell that some of you folks might find interesting....I cant imagine a more powerful retort on Powell's part......
<< When in England at a fairly large conference,
Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury
if our plans for Iraq were just an example of
empire building by George Bush.
He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the
United States has sent many of its fine young men
and women into great peril to fight for freedom
beyond our borders. The only amount of land we
have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those
that did not return."
It became very quiet in the room. >>
Now that thats settled here's a quote from Colin Powell that some of you folks might find interesting....I cant imagine a more powerful retort on Powell's part......
<< When in England at a fairly large conference,
Colin Powell was asked by the Archbishop of Canterbury
if our plans for Iraq were just an example of
empire building by George Bush.
He answered by saying that, "Over the years, the
United States has sent many of its fine young men
and women into great peril to fight for freedom
beyond our borders. The only amount of land we
have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those
that did not return."
It became very quiet in the room. >>
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Joe Ribaudo
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BURYING THE HATCHET
Wiz,
You have a strange way of burying the hatchet. After your initial paragraph, which I agree with completely, you proceed to bury the hatchet - in me.
Those who think the Apache have not advanced in the last 100 years (I assume from your tone you are one of those) presumably would like to turn back the clock on the lifestyle of the Apache of today. That would be an interesting social experiment. I assume you would move yourself and your entire family as close to the tribes as you could get, in order to bond with them. I doubt you could find many Apache of today who would actually participate in that experiment. I know there would be some who would say they would do it in a minute, but the reality would not live up to the fantasy. Killing other humans on a fairly regular basis would be an important part of that lifestyle. Perhaps in your experiment you could excise that particular habit.
There are many tribes that did not take well to the white man's lifestyle. That does not mean they should have been left out of our advancing civilization. Many countries in this world would have exterminated them all. We chose to make them our neighbors and fellow citizens where possible. Most took advantage of that offer and prospered. Some did not and live in deplorable conditions. That is how the real world works.
When the Apache crossed into this country from Asia, they were strong and aggressive warriors and took control of a large portion of the southwest. They did not do that by kindness and getting along with the tribes around them. They did it by overwhelming force and cruelty. That was the way of the world. When the Europeans came into this country, they did exactly what the Apache had done, only on a larger scale. Many native tribes understood the power that was coming against them and survived by doing what people around the world had been doing since the begining of mankind. They assimilated. The Apache took a little longer to realize their situation and were almost exterminated.
There have been veiled threats concerning my safety in the mountains by others, and you have chosen to join their ranks. I do not take these comments lightly. I have been going into the Superstitions for fourty-four years now and have always been aware of the dangers of the area. Those dangers have never kept me out, and they never will - except for an occasional rain storm.
It would be a good thing to think of what you're saying and how it might be construed before voicing these oblique threats - but thanks for the warning.
You have read a great deal into my comments that have no relation whatsoever to what I have said. I have reread my posts and find nothing which denigrates the modern-day Apache people. If those who can read and understand what they are reading care to weigh in on my meaning, I will welcome their critique.
Thank you for intervening with Peter concerning letting me "off the hook."
Peter,
What a great quote. The entire country, especially those that think we are in Iraq for the oil, should hear it. You would be able to hear a pin drop across the nation. Unfortunately an open mind is required to understand the written or spoken word.
A heartfelt thanks for that post.
Joe
Wiz,
I am now ready to actually "bury the hatchet" unless you would like to continue your personal attack with one last dig.
You have a strange way of burying the hatchet. After your initial paragraph, which I agree with completely, you proceed to bury the hatchet - in me.
Those who think the Apache have not advanced in the last 100 years (I assume from your tone you are one of those) presumably would like to turn back the clock on the lifestyle of the Apache of today. That would be an interesting social experiment. I assume you would move yourself and your entire family as close to the tribes as you could get, in order to bond with them. I doubt you could find many Apache of today who would actually participate in that experiment. I know there would be some who would say they would do it in a minute, but the reality would not live up to the fantasy. Killing other humans on a fairly regular basis would be an important part of that lifestyle. Perhaps in your experiment you could excise that particular habit.
There are many tribes that did not take well to the white man's lifestyle. That does not mean they should have been left out of our advancing civilization. Many countries in this world would have exterminated them all. We chose to make them our neighbors and fellow citizens where possible. Most took advantage of that offer and prospered. Some did not and live in deplorable conditions. That is how the real world works.
When the Apache crossed into this country from Asia, they were strong and aggressive warriors and took control of a large portion of the southwest. They did not do that by kindness and getting along with the tribes around them. They did it by overwhelming force and cruelty. That was the way of the world. When the Europeans came into this country, they did exactly what the Apache had done, only on a larger scale. Many native tribes understood the power that was coming against them and survived by doing what people around the world had been doing since the begining of mankind. They assimilated. The Apache took a little longer to realize their situation and were almost exterminated.
There have been veiled threats concerning my safety in the mountains by others, and you have chosen to join their ranks. I do not take these comments lightly. I have been going into the Superstitions for fourty-four years now and have always been aware of the dangers of the area. Those dangers have never kept me out, and they never will - except for an occasional rain storm.
It would be a good thing to think of what you're saying and how it might be construed before voicing these oblique threats - but thanks for the warning.You have read a great deal into my comments that have no relation whatsoever to what I have said. I have reread my posts and find nothing which denigrates the modern-day Apache people. If those who can read and understand what they are reading care to weigh in on my meaning, I will welcome their critique.
Thank you for intervening with Peter concerning letting me "off the hook."
Peter,
What a great quote. The entire country, especially those that think we are in Iraq for the oil, should hear it. You would be able to hear a pin drop across the nation. Unfortunately an open mind is required to understand the written or spoken word.
A heartfelt thanks for that post.
Joe
Wiz,
I am now ready to actually "bury the hatchet" unless you would like to continue your personal attack with one last dig.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Crossings
Due to the kindness and generosity of someone I have never met, I have additional maps confirming the well used fords directly south of Fort McDowell. Because of the three major roads that converged there it is obvious that these fords were used on a regular basis. I doubt if any crossing was feasable during flood seasons. That makes my theory a little more than likely.
Joe
Joe
Joe,
There are several things I could say to continue this discussion, but there's no point. I didn't intend to continue an attack on you, and I won't now.
Just let me wrap it up by saying that I in no way intended to threaten you. It just seemed that you were under the impression that you were alone in the mountains, and safe by virtue of numbers. Please, don't take it as a threat from me when I say that neither is necessarily true. I'm not a danger to anyone!
There are several things I could say to continue this discussion, but there's no point. I didn't intend to continue an attack on you, and I won't now.
Just let me wrap it up by saying that I in no way intended to threaten you. It just seemed that you were under the impression that you were alone in the mountains, and safe by virtue of numbers. Please, don't take it as a threat from me when I say that neither is necessarily true. I'm not a danger to anyone!
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Joe Ribaudo
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Threats
Wiz,
I have had enough conversations with you to know your a good man.
I never received a direct threat from any member of this forum and that includes you. My perception has been that the threats were being delivered on the behalf of others and to further someone else's agenda.
I have a lifetime of experience that is always with me. Some of it good and some bad. I often leave the other team members and explore on my own, but I am never alone. I have an eye for old trails and the signs of another's presence. I never ignore those signs. I have never felt in danger from others while in the mountains, but staying alert is not a habit I have been able to give up. Enjoying the colors, smells, views and solitude of the Superstitions is not lessened in any way by my always being aware that the world can become a bad place in the blink of an eye.
I grew up with Indians and my daughter is married to one. He is a man I respect and love. They gave me two beautiful granddaughters who are, of course, part Indian. I have always read whatever I could get on the history of American Indians and that includes whatever is available from their side of the story. There are many aspects of their lifestyle that I have great respect for and have used in my own life. My home is full of Indian art and books. I can also look at parts of their history, as well as our own without turning a blind eye to the dark sides or the less savory facts. It's all history to me, and that's my thing.
Joe
I have had enough conversations with you to know your a good man.
I never received a direct threat from any member of this forum and that includes you. My perception has been that the threats were being delivered on the behalf of others and to further someone else's agenda.
I have a lifetime of experience that is always with me. Some of it good and some bad. I often leave the other team members and explore on my own, but I am never alone. I have an eye for old trails and the signs of another's presence. I never ignore those signs. I have never felt in danger from others while in the mountains, but staying alert is not a habit I have been able to give up. Enjoying the colors, smells, views and solitude of the Superstitions is not lessened in any way by my always being aware that the world can become a bad place in the blink of an eye.
I grew up with Indians and my daughter is married to one. He is a man I respect and love. They gave me two beautiful granddaughters who are, of course, part Indian. I have always read whatever I could get on the history of American Indians and that includes whatever is available from their side of the story. There are many aspects of their lifestyle that I have great respect for and have used in my own life. My home is full of Indian art and books. I can also look at parts of their history, as well as our own without turning a blind eye to the dark sides or the less savory facts. It's all history to me, and that's my thing.
Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Mar 29, 2003 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Threats
Well, I can't offer any info on that. I go into the mountains under the same conditions you do, and am no safer than you are. I guess it all comes down to, you gotta watch what you do.Joe Ribaudo wrote:I never received a direct threat from any member of this forum and that includes you. My perception has been that the threats were being delivered on the behalf of others and to further someone else's agenda.
There! Are we all friends again? Everyone got it all out of their systems?
Good! Now we can talk about something that hasn't received much attention lately: The LDM.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Friends
Wiz,
From my side, we have never been enemys. The longer we participate in this forum, the more likely we are to have disagreements and misunderstandings. That does not mean we must stop being friends. Friends and family go thru a lifetime of these problems. None of us will stop calling history as we see it. Your viewpoint does not make you un-American or me anti-Indian. It's all perception of the facts as we know them. I always look forward to reading your posts as well as Peters. I know I will always see the passion and courage of your convictions behind the words. The Apache thread had to run its course to the end. Both sides of the debate gave it the airing it deserved. I have no problem with my comments or the only source that was presented in the entire discussion. There are many sources that dispute the allegation that the Apache were eaters of human flesh when the Spanish first encountered them. Neither you or Peter chose to quote even one of those sources in your heated defense of The People, after challanging me to produce my own source. Over the years I have read both sides of that debate and presented the one that would stir up the (too calm) waters of the forum.
I first read THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS before I was twelve years old. Over the years I have reread it three or four times. I have a very nice leather bound copy now and will (no doubt) read it again. It presents both sides of the Indian heart and spirit. Your input is always welcome, as is Peter's, even when I am the target of your disapproval.
Being an unwitting participant in another's agenda does not make someone a less effective tool.
Your friend,
Joe Ribaudo
From my side, we have never been enemys. The longer we participate in this forum, the more likely we are to have disagreements and misunderstandings. That does not mean we must stop being friends. Friends and family go thru a lifetime of these problems. None of us will stop calling history as we see it. Your viewpoint does not make you un-American or me anti-Indian. It's all perception of the facts as we know them. I always look forward to reading your posts as well as Peters. I know I will always see the passion and courage of your convictions behind the words. The Apache thread had to run its course to the end. Both sides of the debate gave it the airing it deserved. I have no problem with my comments or the only source that was presented in the entire discussion. There are many sources that dispute the allegation that the Apache were eaters of human flesh when the Spanish first encountered them. Neither you or Peter chose to quote even one of those sources in your heated defense of The People, after challanging me to produce my own source. Over the years I have read both sides of that debate and presented the one that would stir up the (too calm) waters of the forum.
I first read THE LAST OF THE MOHICANS before I was twelve years old. Over the years I have reread it three or four times. I have a very nice leather bound copy now and will (no doubt) read it again. It presents both sides of the Indian heart and spirit. Your input is always welcome, as is Peter's, even when I am the target of your disapproval.
Being an unwitting participant in another's agenda does not make someone a less effective tool.
Your friend,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: Friends
Come on now Joe, we buried the hatchet, remember? I'm going to let you have the last word here. But let's make it the last one, OK?Joe Ribaudo wrote:...Neither you or Peter chose to quote even one of those sources in your heated defense of The People, after challanging me to produce my own source...
Shall we talk LDM, or should I find some other forum that wants to? I don't log on here to argue with people. I find it tiresome and pointless.
Now now Wiz...do you think its easy for an ndoi (cat) to change its stripes so quickly? (particuarly cats of the older variety that are set in their ways and are mighty scared of getting their "tootsies" wet)?
Give Joe a chance. I am sure that he just has his genetic encoding done in such a way that he just cant help annoying folks....he doesnt mean to..it just comes off that way.
Give Joe a chance. I am sure that he just has his genetic encoding done in such a way that he just cant help annoying folks....he doesnt mean to..it just comes off that way.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Possibilities
Aurum,
I have read somewhere (I would need to look it up) that Aaron Mason never really believed the story given by the Two Soldiers. If so, that would seem to have some bearing on the Joe Deering story, if true.
Since the "trail" of Joe Deering has been known for many years and followed by countless Dutch Hunters, it would not be unreasonable to think that something is wrong with the story.
In the event that flood conditions existed at the crossing south of the fort, how feasable would the crossing (by foot) at Rocky Shallows be? Shallow water running in flood conditions is extremely treacherous. You need only look at the media coverage of floods in the Phoenix area to see how dangerous those shallow flood waters are.
Some consideration should be given to the possible route you have described, if only to discount it as a possibility. Those who believe the story as it is accepted today, should consider both routes and decide which one they would choose in 1883 or 1884. Finding water was not a likely consideration once they left the river, in my opinion. They chose to walk to the Silver King (instead of taking the stage) because of the perfect weather conditions. I believe they could have carried enough water to make the trip to the mine. Is the waterfall on the Deering Trail flowing pretty good right now? I know it is not acceptable to quote Ely in this forum, but I will risk the ridicule.
"And since they knew where they wanted to go, they had decided against taking the circuitous Apache Trail, which paralleled the Salt River to the high ground above Fish Creek and then took a right-angle turn along the ridges to the neighborhood of Pinal." That statement could, of course, be interpreted two ways, but not if you read it in context. I assume they were referring to Old Camp Pinal. "They had been in scouting expeditions after Indians and were familiar in a general way with the lie of the land between fort McDowell and Picket Post, which they knew was near Pinal." Just something else to consider in the Two Soldiers/Joe Deering story. 
Joe
I have read somewhere (I would need to look it up) that Aaron Mason never really believed the story given by the Two Soldiers. If so, that would seem to have some bearing on the Joe Deering story, if true.
Since the "trail" of Joe Deering has been known for many years and followed by countless Dutch Hunters, it would not be unreasonable to think that something is wrong with the story.
In the event that flood conditions existed at the crossing south of the fort, how feasable would the crossing (by foot) at Rocky Shallows be? Shallow water running in flood conditions is extremely treacherous. You need only look at the media coverage of floods in the Phoenix area to see how dangerous those shallow flood waters are.
Some consideration should be given to the possible route you have described, if only to discount it as a possibility. Those who believe the story as it is accepted today, should consider both routes and decide which one they would choose in 1883 or 1884. Finding water was not a likely consideration once they left the river, in my opinion. They chose to walk to the Silver King (instead of taking the stage) because of the perfect weather conditions. I believe they could have carried enough water to make the trip to the mine. Is the waterfall on the Deering Trail flowing pretty good right now? I know it is not acceptable to quote Ely in this forum, but I will risk the ridicule.
"And since they knew where they wanted to go, they had decided against taking the circuitous Apache Trail, which paralleled the Salt River to the high ground above Fish Creek and then took a right-angle turn along the ridges to the neighborhood of Pinal." That statement could, of course, be interpreted two ways, but not if you read it in context. I assume they were referring to Old Camp Pinal. "They had been in scouting expeditions after Indians and were familiar in a general way with the lie of the land between fort McDowell and Picket Post, which they knew was near Pinal." Just something else to consider in the Two Soldiers/Joe Deering story. Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Tue Apr 01, 2003 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe
The following is taken verbatim from my copies of the Bark Notes. Kindly explain to me how this matches up with Joe's theory of the Soldiers taking the desert trail around the Western Superstition Massif.
" That they were discharged soldiers from McDowell and had decided to come over to the King to see if they could get work in the mine. So they struck out TOWARD the King, crossed Salt River, and struck a trail which they had been told was the proper one to take, and which now is called the Apache Trail, but it is now an automobile road. They followed it for several miles to a CREEK CROSSING, where there was water. The trail after that appeared to run directly north and the King was NEARLY south, so while they felt certain the trail would eventually land them at the King it must be a long way around and they were tired. They decided to take a short cut, went up THIS CREEK for some distance, came to a waterfall and could go no further.............."
1) If they set out TOWARD the Silver King from Ft McDowell it is likely they were headed southeast. NOT south or southwest.
2) The creek crossing on the Apache Trail is obviously -------- Creek. In fact when I last passed thru it it had a bit of standing water...even across the road.
3) The trail to this day runs nearly north (and uphill) from there. It would be quite logical that if they wanted to take a shortcut that they would tramp down the creek as it is in the direction of the King.
4) The waterfall obstacle is still in exisitence today.
Now, I understand you enjoy putting preposterous theories out there just to see if the fish are nibbling ....but please give me a break on this one.
The chance of the Soldiers taking the route you outlined is about as likely as you camping out in the rain.
The following is taken verbatim from my copies of the Bark Notes. Kindly explain to me how this matches up with Joe's theory of the Soldiers taking the desert trail around the Western Superstition Massif.
" That they were discharged soldiers from McDowell and had decided to come over to the King to see if they could get work in the mine. So they struck out TOWARD the King, crossed Salt River, and struck a trail which they had been told was the proper one to take, and which now is called the Apache Trail, but it is now an automobile road. They followed it for several miles to a CREEK CROSSING, where there was water. The trail after that appeared to run directly north and the King was NEARLY south, so while they felt certain the trail would eventually land them at the King it must be a long way around and they were tired. They decided to take a short cut, went up THIS CREEK for some distance, came to a waterfall and could go no further.............."
1) If they set out TOWARD the Silver King from Ft McDowell it is likely they were headed southeast. NOT south or southwest.
2) The creek crossing on the Apache Trail is obviously -------- Creek. In fact when I last passed thru it it had a bit of standing water...even across the road.
3) The trail to this day runs nearly north (and uphill) from there. It would be quite logical that if they wanted to take a shortcut that they would tramp down the creek as it is in the direction of the King.
4) The waterfall obstacle is still in exisitence today.
Now, I understand you enjoy putting preposterous theories out there just to see if the fish are nibbling ....but please give me a break on this one.
The chance of the Soldiers taking the route you outlined is about as likely as you camping out in the rain.
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Joe Ribaudo
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One thing at a time.
Hello Peter,
There are many reasons not to take pack animals and riders into the mountains during a hard storm, but I will leave your premise floating around in your mind, just to keep you smug at night.
The fact is, it started to rain as we set up our camp and we spent the first night in the rain. We were, of course, prepared to do that and had no discomfort whatsoever.
I noticed while you were being so exact as to how the soldiers left Fort McDowell, that you (and Jim Bark?) conveniently left out the part where the Two Soldiers crossed the Verde River. Is it your contention that they burrowed under the Verde? Are you also saying that it would be impossible for them to cross the Salt south of the fort and proceed in any manner toward the Silver King and cross the Apache Trail?
1) South to southeast to East is the shortest, easiest and most logical route for anyone with more than half a brain to take from Fort McDowell to the mine. I am sure you would choose to walk the same route you think the Two Soldiers took to make the fastest and shortest trip to the King.
2) _ _ _ _ _ Creek, which I assume you believe is some kind of secret, may be the only creek you can find in that part of the world, but there are a few more to choose from. The waterfall part of the story stands alone. Of course, there are no possibilities of creek crossings, whatsoever, going any other way. Suppose for just one minute that the Two Soldiers picked up a trail through the Goldfield Mountains as a possibility. It does open up other choices.
3) Point three, as well as the rest, assumes we have the absolute truth of this story, in which case you are entirely correct.
Since I directed my comments to Aurum, I don't feel that I was breaking your chops, so to speak. Sorry if you took them as a personal insult to your inteligence. Aurum seemed to be giving the theory some small amount of consideration. Since the old story seems to pinch out at the crucial point (much like most of our stories) and you, as well as most other Dutch Hunters were unaware of the well used crossing south of Fort McDowell, I thought everyone would appreciate another slant on an old story.
There is always a point to keeping your mind open to another person's ideas, because you could be wrong. "Man's got to know his limitations."
Since you are quoting Jim Bark, I assume you know he did not think the LDM was anywhere near your area.
If I had more than a casual interest in this story, I might be able to put forth a less "preposterous theory".
Since I have, and did camp out in the rain, I will assume you find my theory likely.
Calm down, it's just a story.
Joe
There are many reasons not to take pack animals and riders into the mountains during a hard storm, but I will leave your premise floating around in your mind, just to keep you smug at night.
The fact is, it started to rain as we set up our camp and we spent the first night in the rain. We were, of course, prepared to do that and had no discomfort whatsoever. I noticed while you were being so exact as to how the soldiers left Fort McDowell, that you (and Jim Bark?) conveniently left out the part where the Two Soldiers crossed the Verde River. Is it your contention that they burrowed under the Verde? Are you also saying that it would be impossible for them to cross the Salt south of the fort and proceed in any manner toward the Silver King and cross the Apache Trail?
1) South to southeast to East is the shortest, easiest and most logical route for anyone with more than half a brain to take from Fort McDowell to the mine. I am sure you would choose to walk the same route you think the Two Soldiers took to make the fastest and shortest trip to the King.
2) _ _ _ _ _ Creek, which I assume you believe is some kind of secret, may be the only creek you can find in that part of the world, but there are a few more to choose from. The waterfall part of the story stands alone.
Of course, there are no possibilities of creek crossings, whatsoever, going any other way. Suppose for just one minute that the Two Soldiers picked up a trail through the Goldfield Mountains as a possibility. It does open up other choices.3) Point three, as well as the rest, assumes we have the absolute truth of this story, in which case you are entirely correct.
Since I directed my comments to Aurum, I don't feel that I was breaking your chops, so to speak.
Sorry if you took them as a personal insult to your inteligence. Aurum seemed to be giving the theory some small amount of consideration. Since the old story seems to pinch out at the crucial point (much like most of our stories) and you, as well as most other Dutch Hunters were unaware of the well used crossing south of Fort McDowell, I thought everyone would appreciate another slant on an old story.There is always a point to keeping your mind open to another person's ideas, because you could be wrong. "Man's got to know his limitations."
Since you are quoting Jim Bark, I assume you know he did not think the LDM was anywhere near your area.
If I had more than a casual interest in this story, I might be able to put forth a less "preposterous theory".
Since I have, and did camp out in the rain, I will assume you find my theory likely.
Calm down, it's just a story.
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Pointing out my faults
Peter,
No problem with your attempting to point out the many faults concerning my mental process. I have no problem admiting I may be "all wet".
In the past I always gave respectful consideration to people whose own experiences in a particular field hovered around my own age or longer.
You have done a lot of research on this matter, and the chances that it happened any way (other than the way you believe it happened) are slim indeed. I think your argument holds water, as long as the Two Soldiers, Jim Bark, John Chuning and everyone else who was around and talking about this story at the time told the truth. The distinct possibility that those people may have been trying to mislead those who followed their directions should not be dismissed out of hand. If they actually did find the ore, it might be a good idea to look at the story from a number of perspectives, rather than following the accepted version like a faithful dog with its tongue dragging on the ground. Brokers (much like doctors) are used to having people believe their conclusions are the only ones worth listening to. I have never said you are wrong, only that other possibilities are there to look at. Those who have read our comments will judge them in their own minds and decide if they have any worth. You have defended your point with more heat than was warranted. The names and vitrol that were presented in your posts seem suspicious in nature. If your position is strong, a professional and respectful presentation of your facts will suffice to convince the other members of the forum that my theory has no merit. I can live with that. Can you?
If I answered your posts "in kind", I was wasting ink.
You are in good company with your beliefs on this story. No one who has followed the Two Solders/Joe Deering story has ever considered my theory for one minute. I believe marching in lock-step is in order.
Joe Ribaudo
No problem with your attempting to point out the many faults concerning my mental process. I have no problem admiting I may be "all wet".
In the past I always gave respectful consideration to people whose own experiences in a particular field hovered around my own age or longer.
You have done a lot of research on this matter, and the chances that it happened any way (other than the way you believe it happened) are slim indeed. I think your argument holds water, as long as the Two Soldiers, Jim Bark, John Chuning and everyone else who was around and talking about this story at the time told the truth. The distinct possibility that those people may have been trying to mislead those who followed their directions should not be dismissed out of hand. If they actually did find the ore, it might be a good idea to look at the story from a number of perspectives, rather than following the accepted version like a faithful dog with its tongue dragging on the ground.
Brokers (much like doctors) are used to having people believe their conclusions are the only ones worth listening to. I have never said you are wrong, only that other possibilities are there to look at. Those who have read our comments will judge them in their own minds and decide if they have any worth. You have defended your point with more heat than was warranted. The names and vitrol that were presented in your posts seem suspicious in nature. If your position is strong, a professional and respectful presentation of your facts will suffice to convince the other members of the forum that my theory has no merit. I can live with that. Can you?If I answered your posts "in kind", I was wasting ink.
You are in good company with your beliefs on this story. No one who has followed the Two Solders/Joe Deering story has ever considered my theory for one minute. I believe marching in lock-step is in order.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe
No need to march in lock step. You are entitled to express your opinion as often and as loudly as you like....and I would defend with my life your right to do so.
I just enjoy poking holes in your theories (as you enjoy doing the same to my own). If you could see me sitting here giggling as I answer most of these posts you would know where I am coming from.
Did the Soldiers take the long way round south of McDowell? Probably not.
But who knows for sure....... Maybe someday if you are a good boy I will send you a certain diagram and a certain accompanying photo...
No need to march in lock step. You are entitled to express your opinion as often and as loudly as you like....and I would defend with my life your right to do so.
I just enjoy poking holes in your theories (as you enjoy doing the same to my own). If you could see me sitting here giggling as I answer most of these posts you would know where I am coming from.
Did the Soldiers take the long way round south of McDowell? Probably not.
But who knows for sure....... Maybe someday if you are a good boy I will send you a certain diagram and a certain accompanying photo...
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Joe Ribaudo
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poor hearing
Peter,
Loud? You have really good ears.
The route going south from McDowell is shorter, and easier by a long shot.
No need to wait for someday as I will give both items a fair and balanced look. Holding your bait above the water will not catch many fish. It would appear that no one has ever given you that advise as you have been doing that for as long as I have been on the forum. That was pointed out to me by another member and I have found it to be true.
That's your style and perhaps it is for good reasons. I am sure you have better information on this subject than any other researcher, especially me. I mean that. What you know as fact is not the point. We do not have the information you constantly dangle before us. I brought forth a theory which is pure conjecture based on previously (not) well known facts. It deserves at least as must consideration as the information you hold in secret.
I am not (Is that what you mean by loud?) saying your conclusions are wrong, or unreasonable, given the evidence we have all been gifted with.
I look forward to receiving your diagram and photo.
Joe Ribaudo
Loud? You have really good ears.
The route going south from McDowell is shorter, and easier by a long shot.
No need to wait for someday as I will give both items a fair and balanced look.
Holding your bait above the water will not catch many fish. It would appear that no one has ever given you that advise as you have been doing that for as long as I have been on the forum. That was pointed out to me by another member and I have found it to be true. That's your style and perhaps it is for good reasons. I am sure you have better information on this subject than any other researcher, especially me. I mean that. What you know as fact is not the point. We do not have the information you constantly dangle before us. I brought forth a theory which is pure conjecture based on previously (not) well known facts. It deserves at least as must consideration as the information you hold in secret.
I am not (Is that what you mean by loud?) saying your conclusions are wrong, or unreasonable, given the evidence we have all been gifted with.
I look forward to receiving your diagram and photo.
Joe Ribaudo
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Joe Ribaudo
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How Far Is Too Far
Peter,
It's just about seventy miles either way. That assumes you travel a straight line through the mountains. Waltz is supposed to have given Dick Holmes three seperate ways to get to his mine. All three are there, but none led to his mine. Not everyone tells the truth in these matters. Is it a good idea to follow the directions given to Holmes? If we knew for sure what they were, perhaps, but it seems likely he could have done a better job of following those directions than someone looking today.
I wonder how much traffic was going between Phoenix and the Silver King and how much might have been going up through the Salt River Canyon? It seems logical that a lot of frieght would have been moving between the King and Phoenix. How many fellow travelers were on your trail, might have been a consideration, not to mention hitching a ride on a frieght wagon. Can't really find a good reason to choose their original route. The short cut does look good when you consider what was ahead of them, but why go that way at all?
Joe
It's just about seventy miles either way. That assumes you travel a straight line through the mountains.
Waltz is supposed to have given Dick Holmes three seperate ways to get to his mine. All three are there, but none led to his mine. Not everyone tells the truth in these matters. Is it a good idea to follow the directions given to Holmes? If we knew for sure what they were, perhaps, but it seems likely he could have done a better job of following those directions than someone looking today.I wonder how much traffic was going between Phoenix and the Silver King and how much might have been going up through the Salt River Canyon? It seems logical that a lot of frieght would have been moving between the King and Phoenix. How many fellow travelers were on your trail, might have been a consideration, not to mention hitching a ride on a frieght wagon. Can't really find a good reason to choose their original route. The short cut does look good when you consider what was ahead of them, but why go that way at all?
Joe
<< Holding your bait above the water will not catch many fish. It would appear that no one has ever given you that advise as you have been doing that for as long as I have been on the forum. That was pointed out to me by another member and I have found it to be true. >>
That might be true if I were a fisherman like yourself. However, I just try to stay out of the way of the sharp hooks and barbs that sometimes appear on the forum. No need for me to fish..as I have the answers that satisfy my own curiosity.
That might be true if I were a fisherman like yourself. However, I just try to stay out of the way of the sharp hooks and barbs that sometimes appear on the forum. No need for me to fish..as I have the answers that satisfy my own curiosity.
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Joe Ribaudo
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Explanations
Peter,
No problem, my friend. I will have no trouble explaining that confusing post.
"Did the Soldiers take the long way round south of McDowell?" No. As the crow flies, both routes are approximatly 70.5 miles long. I am sure you can figure out for yourself, that you could not walk much of a straight line in the Superstitions, but I will mention that, just in case. Most of the trail through the mountains would be between 2500' to 3500' in elevation, some a little less, some a little more. Let's just say that your statement was in error. If you are going to present a reason that they would not take one trail over another, you should at least try to be as close to accurate as you can be. No hole poking intended here.
It is possible (indicated by his results) that Waltz lied to Dick Holmes about all three trails to his mine. He would have done that to insure that Julia had the best chance to find his mine, by sending Holmes on a wild goose chase away from the area he intended for Julia. If Holmes thought he had the correct directions, he might not follow Julia. Without any directions to Holmes from himself, Waltz could be assured that Holmes would follow Julia like a dog after a bitch in heat. I think you have the picture here. The whole idea was for Holmes not to find his mine. Now how does that relate to the Two Soldiers/Joe Deering story.
The Two Soldiers or Joe Deering find a lost mine. They have this ore which they are going to sell. Everyone in Jowl's County is going to want to know where they found it. Are they going to tell those folks where it was found, or are they going to send them on a "wild goose chase", like Waltz did with Dick Holmes? You think they will spill their guts on this one, I am less sure. You then believe that everyone who was around at the time, also spilled their guts. I am less sure.
I doubt if my comment concerning the ability of someone who had evidence directly from the Two Soldiers or Joe Deering, having a better chance of finding the mine than someone searching today needs explanation, but perhaps that is the very thing which has you so confused. Soooo,
It makes since to me that the trails were fresher leading to the mine. Less erosion. The story had less time to be fiddled with, and those boys just seemed to have lots of time. Just trying to keep this real simple.
Looking for reasons to justify their going around the north side or the south side of the Superstitions, I thought the number of people going the same way, might have had some bearing on their choice. The idea that they might even catch a ride on a frieght wagon, which just might have some appeal to someone walking seventy miles across the desert, did occure to me. Did I mention that it was shorter and easier going south from McDowell?
I hope this clears up a clearly disjointed, hard to follow, rambling post for you. My intent was not to confuse or stretch your powers of understanding and deduction, and I am sure I had some kind of point, at least when I began.
I believe this all fits into the topic.
Joe
No problem, my friend. I will have no trouble explaining that confusing post.
"Did the Soldiers take the long way round south of McDowell?" No. As the crow flies, both routes are approximatly 70.5 miles long. I am sure you can figure out for yourself, that you could not walk much of a straight line in the Superstitions, but I will mention that, just in case.
Most of the trail through the mountains would be between 2500' to 3500' in elevation, some a little less, some a little more. Let's just say that your statement was in error. If you are going to present a reason that they would not take one trail over another, you should at least try to be as close to accurate as you can be. No hole poking intended here. It is possible (indicated by his results) that Waltz lied to Dick Holmes about all three trails to his mine. He would have done that to insure that Julia had the best chance to find his mine, by sending Holmes on a wild goose chase away from the area he intended for Julia. If Holmes thought he had the correct directions, he might not follow Julia. Without any directions to Holmes from himself, Waltz could be assured that Holmes would follow Julia like a dog after a bitch in heat. I think you have the picture here.
The whole idea was for Holmes not to find his mine. Now how does that relate to the Two Soldiers/Joe Deering story.The Two Soldiers or Joe Deering find a lost mine. They have this ore which they are going to sell. Everyone in Jowl's County is going to want to know where they found it. Are they going to tell those folks where it was found, or are they going to send them on a "wild goose chase", like Waltz did with Dick Holmes? You think they will spill their guts on this one, I am less sure. You then believe that everyone who was around at the time, also spilled their guts. I am less sure.
I doubt if my comment concerning the ability of someone who had evidence directly from the Two Soldiers or Joe Deering, having a better chance of finding the mine than someone searching today needs explanation, but perhaps that is the very thing which has you so confused. Soooo,
It makes since to me that the trails were fresher leading to the mine. Less erosion. The story had less time to be fiddled with, and those boys just seemed to have lots of time. Just trying to keep this real simple.
Looking for reasons to justify their going around the north side or the south side of the Superstitions, I thought the number of people going the same way, might have had some bearing on their choice. The idea that they might even catch a ride on a frieght wagon, which just might have some appeal to someone walking seventy miles across the desert, did occure to me. Did I mention that it was shorter and easier going south from McDowell?
I hope this clears up a clearly disjointed, hard to follow, rambling post for you. My intent was not to confuse or stretch your powers of understanding and deduction, and I am sure I had some kind of point, at least when I began.
I believe this all fits into the topic.
Joe
<<"Did the Soldiers take the long way round south of McDowell?" No. As the crow flies, both routes are approximatly 70.5 miles long.>>
WRONG.
If brother Raven flew from McDowell to Pinal in a straight long he would fly approximately 55 miles (give or take a mile).
If he flew from McDowell to AJ to Florence to Pinal (the long way around that you have somehow equated with the same distance as the "shortcut") he would be flying a tad short of 80 miles.
I am not too certain how 55 miles equates with 80. Perhaps my maps are in error?
WRONG.
If brother Raven flew from McDowell to Pinal in a straight long he would fly approximately 55 miles (give or take a mile).
If he flew from McDowell to AJ to Florence to Pinal (the long way around that you have somehow equated with the same distance as the "shortcut") he would be flying a tad short of 80 miles.
I am not too certain how 55 miles equates with 80. Perhaps my maps are in error?