Tonto Apaches

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Don't know that the Apache man had to kill someone, before he could marry. Looked in the "Official Apache Rule Book On Marriage and Killing"
and couldn't find such a thing.

I guess the "Comanche" part of your story pretty much rules out Clint Peoples.

You reckon "E" stands for Epache?

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe; I don,t know if it,s in the official rule book or not but in most indian cultures the young laddie had to make a kill-steal somepin usually a horse or rifle from a white man-count a coup on enemy in order to get their eagle feather; it,s my understanding that they couldn,t get any wookie unless they had earned their feather. NO squaws in that! If Pete was as pieed off as me when I was trying to get back on. THERE is no telling WHAT the E stands for. HIS next move was probley like mine, Throw that ----------out the door. bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Doubt the Apache ever actually had a rule book.

I am not home, so this may be a little "off center". As I remember, an Apache apprentice/novice must successfully participate in four raids to become a "man". As with many other Indian tribes, the number four has a special place in Apache culture.

While the novice must share the rigors of the journey, they are never placed in physical danger. Their participation consists of camp work, including caring for the horses. They do not "steal horses, or come into contact with the enemy.

If the boy does not perform his tasks well (unreliable) or does not show improvement, he will not be taken out again. After the fourth raid, if he is successfull, he becomes a man. He can do what he wants at that point,
including: Voicing his opinion, smoking and taking a wife.

On the fifth raid, all restrictions are removed. They are put in the front line of any battle. At this point they may already be married, without killing anyone or stealing anything.

I am fairly certain the above is correct, at least, for the Apache.

Respectfully,

Joe

[PeterE]

Knun,

The Nednhi Chiricahua were based in the Sierra Madres of Northern Mexico. Juh was their main warchief and Juhs Stronghold in the Sierra Madres became a refuge for the last free bands circa 1880s. The Bedonkohe shaman known as The Wise One married one of Juhs daughters and it was this mix of mainly Bedonkohe and Nednhi warriors (with a smattering of Chokkonen, Chihenne, Mescalero and even some Navajo) that caused most of the troubles in the mid 80s.

P

[bill711]

Joe that may have been fine for the apache BUT as I said before you need to brooden your Idea,s some. Read up on the northern indians. Expand your mind alittle bit. I think the pete has Juh down right. He was more of a mexico apache, tho he was from the U.S. He caused alot of trouble for the settled apache by keeping the settler,s stirred up with their raiding. Of course you had unscroupilous white,s who had money to gain by keeping the fighting going. Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I believe we are right on the edge with this conversation. The web that connects this thread with the LDM is as nebulous and fine as frogs hair.

My journey through and interest in the history and mythology of the Native American Indians started with my grade school friends who's familes had left the Barona Indian Reservation and moved into my hometown of Ramona, CA We remained friends through High School, and I made my share of trips out Wild Cat Canyon Road to the reservation.

The Chrisman, Carrisosa and Reed families were a strong force to be alligned with in the small town of Ramona. Our High School days started us all down the road with "demon booze".

I don't really need to broaden my horizons in my research. I believe I can "hang in there" with any other amateur anthropologist who's interest is the American Indian.

To return to the Tonto Apaches and some insight into why the Yavapai Apache were mis-named, you would need to know that a good many Tonto Apache married into the Kwevkepayas and Wipukepas tribes. The results of this was a cultural blending that blurred the lines a bit.

When Delshe and Eschetlepan negotiated a truce with Lt. George Chilson, I doubt anyone knew that Delshe was half Tonto Apache and half Kwevkepaya, or that it even mattered but the lines between the tribes were thin indeed.

For a better view of the history of the region, I would suggest "Surviving Conquest: A History of the Yavapai Peoples" by, Timothy Braatz.

Peter knows his Apache.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Peter knows his apache? OH is Pete telling you what to say or grading your paper? I may be an amature but I have read for 55 yrs on many things plus knowing many people who did know of the old ways and they did not get them from some blanket ass either! DID I tell your one of my grand fathers as a young boy listen to the cannon fire and watched the troops marching by? This was during the civil war! JOE as a boy I sat and listen to many an old cowboy and soldiers who had fought the indians apache and the great plains indians. IN case you didn,t know it indians were notorious for being windy the more times they told it the better the story got and so did their prestige. JOE I didn,t get all my knowledge off a bookshelf. Joe I had one ancester who was a known indian figher, he got shot off his horse in one fight and had his son cut the bullet out, bandage the wound and then he hopped on his horse an rejoined the fight. in one way indians are like blacks they like to put one over on whitie! so beware of what you read.. bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I did not mean that you were an "amature". You have proved yourself to be anything but an "amature".

My own ancestor was a guy named Sam Huston but I can't say he taught me as much as your grandfather taught you. Those guys from Texas didn't talk so much.

Was that all "blacks" or just a specific type? They came from a lot of places, so it's hard to make a broad statement concerning "they like to put one over on whitie!"

I have never been too careful of what I have read, and believe everything in print, so you may be correct that I should "beware" of what I read.
Those guys who write books also like to "put one over on whitie".

Sorry you took my post so personal.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

That would be Sam Huston Stoker. Born in a wash somewhere in West Texas.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe go to the no holds barred forum! Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I am aware that "blanket ass" is common terminology in Oklahoma, but it is a derogatory term and places the person who uses it in a "racist" light.

Do you consider yourself a racist? If not, what is your defination of a "blanket ass"?

It is normally used to denote, in a derogatory manner, a "traditional" or "reservation" Indian.

As for Peter telling me what to say, or grading my paper, that is a stupid remark. Peter no longer speaks to me at all. If you knew anything about Native Americans, you would know that "it is not the case that a man who is silent says nothing".

The Apache also use "silence" as a form of communication which speaks eloquently, for them. It may be that Peter has recently been taught that form of "speach", or that he knew it all along and decided to apply it to me. I have no problem with that, in fact, I respect it.

While I understand the Native American/Apache custom of speaking with "silence", I have never been one to "give up on words". That may or may not be an asset for me.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

WHoooa Whooa Joe; Do not go politally correct on me or I will not be talking either! I did not call pete a blanket ass or anything else! I did question your use of Peter,s name to back up your purnt to me, that why I asked you if that,s where you was getting your info. While I did use Pete,s name and blanket ass in the same sentence I was not referring to Pete. BUT I was referring to your quoting this big book writer and that big book writer. I know many of these so called experts are professer,s in schools and write under a different name. They would come out here to the west hang around the fort,s plying the indian with extra sweet coffee and interveiwing these sie washing blanket assed indians who will tell them any thing as long as it keeps the goods or coffee flowing. These sorry bunch of indians would hang around the forts begging and stealing whatever they could.These writer,s go back to where they come from and write about the noble red man or the noble pioneer. When all he did was interveiw and few post indian,s. The real red man and pioneer were too busy trying to put food in the pot to be noble, it was hard work to make a living back then. These writer,s wrote a great story BUT that is all it was, very little truth to it. maybe 10% actually told the truth about thing,s. I know that indian,s and black,s are prejudiced. I am too for a certain amount BUT it,s not so much that I can,t live or get along with it. I measure a person for what he/she is to me and the people around them Joe. I have another measure for the races in general too. Have you ever been with a friend and have them change and act differently to you when they get around a crowd of their own color?? Black/indian? Joe it was a indian that purnted this out to me and said Bill I acted like a damn niger and I am ashamed of it. I said what do you mean? He said oh you know how a black will act until he gets around his bunch and then he acts differently toward you, I said oh yes, and I did. I knew. I had noticed that but I thought it was just me. He said that,s how I acted. Not me but him"Star" was his name. These old and new writer,s and newspaper men did not let the truth get in the way of a good story. Now joe I do things from memory always BUT this once I am going to give you this I was reading " Louis L' Amour and his Education of a Wandering Man" and I read this on page 97 In most cases the only way for a young indian to become a man and warrior was to take a scalp-count coup which meant to strike a living,armed enemy Until he had done so he could not get a BRIDE-could not speak in council- was literally a nobody." This was why indians often said they could not live without War. This is about his younger lean and hungry days growing up days. I recomend your reading it Joe a bit dry tho. Did you know that the indian,s used blow guns and boomerang,s and gobbled like a turkey when he attacked his enemy Joe? Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

I did not say, nor hint, that you had called Peter a "blanket ass".

We were talking about Apache, not just any Indian tribe. If we are staying on the subject of the Apache, primarily, than many of your comments are in error, such as your scalping and counting coup to become a man. Scalping was not a normal trait for the Apache.

While they may have been lied to by the Apache they interviewed, the authors I quote did not "hang around the fort,s plying the indian with extra sweet coffee....". Had you read authors like: Goodwin, Basso, Opler, Ball and a good many others, you would know that.

Fiction authors often do a good deal of research in order to make their works "authentic". That does not mean they are serious ethnographers or should be used as "authorities" on the subjects covered in their works of fiction.

I have no illusions about the Native Americans, past or present.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

OK Joe; Then all of your writers were out raiding with the apache against the pineers and the mexicans, so they could get their info straight? If no then how else did they get their info. abt. the wild apache? post indi that,s who, sweet coffee and sugar dibeetus ugh! Bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

Having read Zane Grey, as we both have, does not make anyone knowledgeable on Native American history. Your ancestors stories, likewise, may leave a little information laying in the weeds of a one-sided memory.

You are arguing your point from a position of ignorance. Until you read the authors I have mentioned, you have no idea of where or how they gathered their information. If you wish to continue the conversation, you should find out what "facts" you may be misrepresenting. The only way to do that is research.

I understand you may not be willing to make that effort. Until you are, you should seek another topic to discuss. Grandpaw's stories and Zane Grey's books, which may be fairly accurate, may not be the best source for "factual" history on the Apache or any other Native American tribe.

Respectfully,

Joe

[bill711]

Joe I do not read zane grey. anyway we all couldn,t get our info from your uncle obie. HAH this subject is wore out and I will not talk anymore on this. MABE The Thomas will have something that needs a good gnawing on. bill Pete must be having tube trouble again...My apolizies Joe; 2 neighber girls were showing me their new flop eared rabbit named DOPY I was disrupted in my writing, a mis-strp.Bill

[santos]

bill,
i really wish you could refrain from criticising peter endlessly as you do.As a n authority on all things apache he is extremely knowledgable and certainly has no peers in this world or indeed the next for that matter.His posts are a joy to read, and are ,as joe so rightly says, an education in their own right.His areas of expertise include everything dutchman, everything apache,everything sioux,in fact just about EVERYTHING.His presence will be sorely missed on this forum if he decides never to return.I for one hope and pray he reconsiders his position and decision to leave.When yoy, BILL, acquire one hundredth part of his knowledge, then and only then are you fit to criticise the man whom i refer to as "the genius-the two soldier expert-etc etc ".so bill if you could find it in your heart to apologise to peter and beg forgiveness, and ask ,nay beg peter to return, i for one will applaud you .
kind regards
santos

[bill711]

Santos ar u 1 o them thar RETOID peoples tha i heerd about? bill

[Joe Ribaudo]

Bill,

My bad. Just replace my Zane Grey with Louis L'Amour.

Uncle Obie was crazy. I don't use him as much of a source on anything important, but he did live one hell of a life.

Seems like a good way to end this conversation. Let's just call it a draw.

Respectfully,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Santos,

The Apache would say you have used "wise words" in your comments about Peter.

Other than in a "Wild West" show, do you really believe Sitting Bull ever spent any time in Arizona?

Respectfully,

Joe

[santos]

joe,
the "wild west " show i cant really comment on as the participants, buffalo bill. calamity jane and of course sitting bull left this earth quite a time before i was born. Whether i believe sitting bull was ever in arizona is in large part irrelevant, i was merely mentioning what was said in mentioned book. A s it was reprinted many times, it appears that at least some people thought it had some validity( maybe im presuming that). Do i believe everything i read? of course not,any more than i believe everything thats written on here.I wasn in arizona in the time frame mentioned so i cant answer one way or the other.
bill,
yes im a fully paid up , card carrying member of the "i love ,admire and respect peter society" as i believe one or two others on the forum are.Just apologise to peter ,on your knees preferably,and allwill be well
kind regards

[Joe Ribaudo]

Santos,

Your are getting Martha Jane Cannary and Phoebe Ann Moses mixed up.
Calamity Jane was never in "Buffalo" Bill's show, although it would not be surprising if she made the claim.

Phoebe Ann Moses/Mozee/Butler (Annie Oakley) was in the show with Sitting Bull. He adopted her into the Sioux nation, giving her the name of: Watanya Cicilla or "Little Miss Sure Shot."
Page 287 of "what They Didn't Teach You about the Wild West" by Mike Wright.

Respectfully,

Joe

[santos]

joe
i stand coorrected, it was annie oakley i meant of course not calamity jane.although i must admit i didnt know her correct name(s)....you learn something every day.so my post wasnt entirely useless.
kind regards

[Joe Ribaudo]

Santos,

That was a correction you could sit down for, rather than stand.

I added all the names, just because they happened to be on the page. I thought someone might find it interesting. Glad you did.

Respectfully,

Joe