Tom Kollenborn Chronicle question...

[Cubfan64]

At the end of the 5/4/09 "Chronicle" by Tom Kollenborn, he states the following:

Recent discoveries such as ancient tunnels seem to indicate Mexican miners and prospectors may have entered the Superstition Mountain region prior to 1850. These miners and prospectors probably came from the Santa Cruz and San Pedro river valleys.

Does anyone happen to know the specifics of any of these discoveries? How recent is recent? What are the stories behind these tunnels?

I know I should probably contact Mr. Kollenborn directly, but before I do that, was just wondering if anyone had some ideas on the matter.

[novice]

Paul,

One possible source of Tom’s reference may come from H.E.A.T.’s Archaeological Report. I have not seen that report, except for the excerpt in Jesse’s new book. I really need to read the complete 32 page document before offering anything but…….

From Jacob's Trail
"The report was submitted by Erik Steinbach and Dr. Glen E. Rice, under Rio Salado Archeaology."

“The mine very likely pre-dates the Gadsden Purchase …… The exclusive use of hand hewn rather than milled timbers for shoring the mine, and the absence of a mining claim in Government documents suggest the mine does not date to the period between A. D. 1860 and 1900 of active Anglo American mining in the Superstition Wilderness.”

I had just become involved with the LDM when the H.E.A.T. project was getting underway. I was very excited at the prospect of their being able to date the dig artifacts by the use of dendrochronology (Tree Ring Dating). The apparent inability of using the old timbers discovered to definitively date the dig was by far the most disappointing aspect of the project. For me, that would have settled the question of the date of Spanish mining in the Superstition Wilderness once and for all.

As it stands, I’m still on the fence.

Garry

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry and Paul,

Tom is good friends with Ron and his family. I would guess he is very familiar with Ron's permit dig.

Personally, I doubt it is an old Spanish mine prospect. The natural spring that is present at the site, like many others, was probably worked on by early ranchers and miners to increase the flow. Not an unusuall occurrence at all, in those days.

The silence that has accompanied the end of that project seems to speak volumes. The report that was filed, reads more like someone with a personal interest in the dig, than an unbiased report.

If the dig was a mine, at one time, where is the report on mineral content at this time? In the era mentioned, there was a lot left behind. They would not have taken every bit of ore from the mine. To have done so, I believe, would have left a physical record that would have been undeniable.

Those who are more familiar with Ron'd dig will have no problem recognizing this as pure speculation. For the rest of you, let me assure you.....that is all it is.

Take care,

Joe

[Cubfan64]

Thanks for the replies - you're probably right that Tom is referring to the Feldman work.

I'm really not educated at all in the field of tunnels, mines, drifts, springs, etc... but it seems odd to me that there can be such a difference of interpretation between people concerning the H.E.A.T. work.

Wasn't it pretty much the unanimous opinion of those who did the work there that they were dealing with an old mine (spanish or not)? Isn't it sort of strange that the "evidence" found indicates one thing to a portion of people, while that same evidence signifies something totally different to others?

[novice]

Paul,

It appears to me that Jesse also questions whether it was a mine. He calls it a spring area that the Spanish used for ore processing.

I think that the credentials of Dr. Rice and Eric are such that their report "SUGGESTING" that Spanish ming was involved cannot be dismissed lightly.

Having said that there are two reason given for the dig predating 1860.

No mining claim was filed and unmilled timbers were used.

The first reason disappears if Joe and Jesse are correct. There would be no mining claim if there was no mine.

We are then left with the hand hewn timbers. I suspect that ranchers might well have used unmilled timbers if they were digging out a spring?

For me the evidence hardly raises to the level of anything close to certainty.

Hence my hope for the use of tree ring dating.

Perhaps Jesse can explain the reason for not being able to use the tree ring dating?

Garry

[Cubfan64]

As usual - sensible reasoning Novice

I've been so bogged down with things here I still haven't even finished Jesse's book yet sadly

[Joe Ribaudo]

Paul,

I believe most of us are in exactly the same boat as you. The Superstitions are full of unknowns. Much of the speculation concerning Ron's dig is generated by comment from his crew, and public statements from Ron himself.

Just read Garry's post, and that seems to bolster what I just said, and have been saying for a few years now.

The first question that comes to mind is: Just when did Jesse first think they were digging an old spring? Thomas Glover asked me what I thought Ron had, right after they got their permit. At that time, I offered the opinion that they were digging an old spring. Still have that email.

They believed, as far as I know, that there was a cache of gold bullion at that location rather than a mine.

It's my opinion that the reason for that dig will always be a mystery........for some.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Garry,

"It appears to me that Jesse also questions whether it was a mine. He calls it a spring area that the Spanish used for ore processing."

That could very well be the key to the entire mystery here. Where did the ore come from that the Spanish were processing??? I believe that is what the Feldman's were looking for in their dig......Processed ore.

Take care,

Joe

[pippinwhitepaws]

"It's my opinion that the reason for that dig will always be a mystery........for some."

the old fall back position...specialized knowledge that someone claims to have, and never produces.

[Joe Ribaudo]

pip,

I agree that the claims of "specialized knowledge" which is never produced can be maddening. That's the reason I almost always produce sources for my claims. If I don't have reliable sources, I don't make wild claims of truthfulness.

I have never, of course, had to produce any evidence of rescuing people from a burning helicopter or waiting at Sky Harbor for John McCain to come home from Vietnam, because I don't make up those kinds of stories.

I realize that this topic pales in comparison to something as momentous as people existing on Pangaea 200,000,000 years ago, but we try to keep it as real as possible.

As always, I am glad to see you getting involved......in any topic.

As for my comment, it would seem obvious to anyone, doesn't require a "genius", that the "some" in question would be those who were involved in the dig. To others, like you and I, it will always be a mystery.

Thanks for your input. Hope you stay in the conversation, as you have a lot to contribute.

Joe Ribaudo

[pippinwhitepaws]

just have your buddy delete this account.
-30-

[zentull]

Some of this could be answered checking out the HEAT website and maybe emailing Chewie about what he thought(Maybe ask when his documentary is coming out too) He was out at that treasure hunting expo thing at University of Phoenix stadium, but I couldn't make it.

Anyone know where Cox's "LDM" was? I've seen the map sand drawings of it and read the letters, but its pretty confusing stuff.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I would suggest that you reread Ron's last book.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

I would suggest you look at the file, we are talking two different LDMs.

All the best Dutch Hunters have more than one. Must have been nice to have a back up.

For those trying to keep up, the HEAT dig was for a buried cache in a hidden chamber that Cox wrote about.

I doubt it would be easy to date anything from there with all the contamination. I was hoping they would find something to date early mining, but wood itself in those conditions would hold much weight.

[Cubfan64]

Wayne, what do you mine by "check the file?" I only ask because I was wondering if the Feldman's treasure trove permit application and documentation that got them approved is public record or not?

[zentull]

Gregs files on Cox which contain enough to get you all turned around. The guy was no less dramatic then a number of Dutch Hunters in his theories.

Keyword on what opened this discussion is "may have". If the early Dutch Hunters had not plundered a number of areas early on, it could be already in the history books I believe.

[Cubfan64]

Ahhh thanks - I was wondering if you meant Greg's files as well, but didn't want to ask directly

About your second comment - I fully agree

[zentull]

There are a number of sites that I would have loved to see before they were stripped clean. So much stuff just vanished and though there are leads, it is doubtful that 2nd and 3rd generation family really have a clue about what it is they have or had.

The HEAT excavation was a nice job with the video vignettes and occasional updates from Ron on the forum. It was a good example of how things should be done. There are a number of earlier sites that should have been able to prove the pre 1850s mining theory, but either they had been cleaned out or personal greed got in the way of history.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

How would it be possible for the "early Dutch Hunters" to have "plundered" a mine site, especially ones that did not have a legal claim filed? Plundered has a pejorative connotation when applied to our early prospectors which seems unappropriate. They were simply doing what prospectors do.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Perhaps inappropriate would have been more appropriate.

Slow morning......

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

Thats okay with you getting old and all that.........

[zentull]

Joe,

I am speaking of stories that have been told about various sites and yet there is no definitive inventory that has ever been produced. Some of these things could be authenticated and tested, but they will likely remain in private collections and be forgotten. How many collections are out there and the Historical society will never see them?

Walking along doing my job in North East Phoenix and there is one of the original signs from Apacheland hung up in a guys garage. His wife bought it cause she is an Elvis fan at a garage sale. I gave them Gregs number and hope it wiill find its way to the museum some day, but most likely it will be scrap for the next generation.

Greg, Randy and I heard a story about a certain place that has a wonderful history, but treasure hunters and amateur historians have ruined the chance to better document this place. It was a very nice moment and we stood in a special place in history, a one of a kind moment that would be nice to share, but others have ruined it for us all.

I suppose hoarding is human nature, but it would be nice to actually document that stuff before it ends up in a landfill.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

Sorry, I understood this comment as pertaining to the LDM:

[Keyword on what opened this discussion is "may have". If the early Dutch Hunters had not plundered a number of areas early on, it could be already in the history books I believe.]

I thought you meant the LDM would already be in the history books.........as found.

Take care,

Joe

[zentull]

Nah, thats been found by Kenworthy, Magill, Crawford and a few hundred others. Chuck even gave tours. What more proof could you ask for?

Never could figure why it is in a different spot all the time. Must like to move around.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wayne,

I was kind of hoping my name would be right up there with the big guys.
Visited the LDM not long ago, but must admit to not being the only one to find it.....well maybe find is also the wrong word. Trail was pretty well worn.

Thing is, I got pictures.......what about you?



Take care,

Joe