Charles Kenworthy and Trail Signs/Markers

[S.C.]

Chuck Kenworthy was mentioned under the "favorite clue" topic. I had a few comments about some of Kenworthy's stuff. But, wanted to see if a new topic needed to be started about trail markers in general.

Kenworthy has several books about Spanish/Mexican treasure maps, signs, markers, "codes," etc. Many have claimed to see all kinds of things in the mountains. I know I have. Some might say these are not really of pre-Anglo origin. They could be from Native Americans. From the early ranchers. Even other Dutch Hunters. But not Spanish or Mexican. Okay. Maybe not. But, some things are mighty interesting.

That brings us to Kenworthy. He was mentioned in context of his work regarding treasure maps and markers and the like. And in particular the Superstitions. Kenworthy was a good treasure hunter. At sea. Not on land. He might have been fairly good at finding sunken treasure at sea. But, I believe his theories about the Superstitions and the LDM are not correct. His book on the LDM is based largerly on wishful thinking. It has maps and charts and the de-coding of clues and treasure signs, etc. At first glance it looks very thorough. HOWEVER, a large part of his analysis is based on the Walker Weedin Map. And it appears he was not even aware of its true history. The map he did all his careful analysis on was a memory drawn map. There was no way that letters pointing at mountain ridges and reversals of this and that meant anything. That was because the map was drawn from memory by Thomas Weedin for Jim Bark and Sims Ely from a map he saw YEARS before. There is no way any of Kenworthy's speculation could mean anything. He also uses the Perfil Mapa in a similar manner. Again, I disagree with his conclusions because all other elements of his arguement are unsound and the Perfil Mapa by itself cannot support the others.

Kenworthy also assumed HIS definition of treasure signs and markers were definitive. They were not. He assumed there was some treasure coding book the King of Spain issued to people with specific codes to be used. And these were consistently used on slews of treasure maps. I doubt that was the case. I believe each individual treasure map had its own key or decoding based on who did it for whom.

He also wrote on and on about all these gigantic markers of heads and pointers everywhere - including the Superstition. Again, he assumed his definition were definitive and that the natural formation he saw were markers. Wrong again. I look at all those things and see natural formations. He read much more into them. I have said this before here, but it goes back to the "ink blot test." What do YOU see in an ink blot? Do you see a butterfly or... a skull???? Same with rock formations in the Superstitions. What do YOU see? It is different to everyone.

All this is not to say Kenworthy is to be totally dismissed. Hardly. However, I think one should read his material with care and use extreme judgement.

Saying that, does that mean there are NO markers in the Superstitions just because someone like Kenworthy can be off base? Well, that is a good question. I think Kenworthy was the extreme - seeing things that were not there. But, then there are other things. And if they are there - then WHY?

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
You cease to amaze me. Seems like you just keep pounding out posts that say it all. Nice analysis.
Joe

[Wiz]

Kenworthy also made an extremely detailed analysis of the word "ANYACCA" that appeared on the Weedin map. Greg Davis recently published an excellent article on that map, wherein that nonsense word proved to actually be the word "CANYADA", which makes a heck of a lot more sense. The fact that Kenworthy read so much into a garbled word, using the "King of Spain's secret code book" as a reference, is another good indicator that a lot of wishful thinking was going on as he wrote his book. I wonder if the code book came with a secret decoder ring?

Also, and I've mentioned this before, if you look at his photographs carefully you will see that he often used magic marker to emphasize certain features that he was using to illustrate his points. When you go to the actual sites he photographed, they don't really look like that.

From all accounts by people who knew him, Kenworthy was a sharp guy with a lot of ideas. But as far as I know he never found anything in the Superstitions. That is, other than people like us who bought (and continue to buy) his books!

An aside to Greg Davis, if he's watching: I have been keeping an eye out for the books that you and Doug Stewart are looking for, but haven't seen any of them yet. If I find one I'll forward it to you.

[Roger]

S.C.'s perspective of Chuck K. is probably the most prevailing view held by LDM hunters due to their contact or 2nd hand information on him tied to this mine. I would caution to not throw everything he has documented out based on some of his "revelations" to a memory drawn map and seeing "treasure figures" in every rock in the Supers. He was off base in a number of areas, but he did have access to Spanish records in Spain using te same researcher that Mel Fisher used to use. i also know he had at least one successful land treasure hunt in Mexico using field markers and signs that lead to a hidden cave.

Here are at least two examples that verify things he has documented in the book, Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow & Sun Signs:

1. On page 43 of this book, Chuck shows an example of a "pointer" rock that is usually accompanied by a white "attention getter" rock sign. These signs are used to point directions onward to the next trail marker. I have a photograph in my collection of just such a sign I found in Boulder Canyon. There is a single rock face about 3 square feet in area that is very white and has a very large color contrast to the rocks around it. Just below this white faced rock is a flat slab rock with a supporting rock under its lifted end -- just like the picture in Chuck's book. The stone points up a tributary canyon off of Boulder Canyon that would lead to Marsh Valley.

2. On page 42 of the book, Chuck describes "Sun Signs" that are made of quartz faced rocks cut into a triangle and positioned such that around high noon they project a triangle light onto a cliff face for notice. Now reference Barry Storm;s book, Thunder God's Gold, on page163 in the Notes of Authenticity - Note 31 which reads:

"31. The only light or refection sign which I have seen so far in the Superstitions was that of a triangle sign reflected onto a cliff face in LaBarge Canyon about three miles above its Boulder Canyon junction. This occurred August 6, 1937, at about 2:00pm and shown for approximately ten minutes".

Note that Chuck says that this sign indicates there is a burial or a hidden entrance hear at hand. If Barry Storm saw this sign at 2:00pm, there is a good posibility it is on the East side of the canyon. Probably a sign worth investigating as the Peraltas stored their gold somewhere prior to loading it for Mexico. There would have to be something of significance for them to go to the labor to create such a sign marker.

As in all things associated with the LDM, one must separate the wheat from the chaff and Chuck is no different. Take what is valuable, discard the remainder and be wiser in the process.

Question: Has anyone been up to the location where Chuck K. claims a Spanish mine to be located on the North end of Bluff Springs Mountain?

Roger

[Tracy L Hawkins]

Rodger
Ernie Province and I were on top of Bluff Springs many times . A trail goes up the south end that is badly overgrown but can be folowed . At the top of the trail , just before the flat top, is a stone wall that was obviously used as a watch post . There is a small depression on the top running north and south that could be called a canyon. A small stream of water runs down the center. We were there several times in the heat of summer and never found it dry .
The north end drops of in a very steep and rough cliff face . An old trail at one time went down but it was impassable . If there is a mine in that area the dump must have been over the cliff face as we could find no tailings .

[Wiz]

Question: Has anyone been up to the location where Chuck K. claims a Spanish mine to be located on the North end of Bluff Springs Mountain?

Are you talking about the site with the "X" marking the spot? I was close to it, inspected it from Bull Pass trail with binocs. It looked pretty natural to me so I didn't go to the top of the outcropping to look more closely (it was also raining). But I think I may go back in a week or so for a better look. I still think it's natural but I want to see it up close.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,
Is there good water in that area now? Saves me pack animals when there is water running the canyons. I think Bluff Spring Mountain has had more then it's share of searchers. The Apache had a system of rock signs that was fairly simple and widely used. Don't know if you could tell an Apache rock sign from a Spanish one.
Joe

[S.C.]

Just to clarify, I wanted to emphasize that not all of Kenworthy's imformation is wishful thinking. As I did indicate - and as Roger pointed out - one cannot totally dismiss him. Some things cannot be totally written off. Just be careful. "...Separate the wheat from the chaffe..." Those are good words of wisdom. Not just in regard to Kenworthy - but to ALL things related to the LDM.

[S.C.]

Shifting away from stomping on Kenworthy, and getting to trail markers in general.... Joe... you mentioned the Apache had a system of rock signs. Can you elaborate on them? What form do they (did they) take? And what did they use them for?

Roger points out the quartz reflection scheme. This could be something the Mexican might have actually used. It is not something like interpreting a "natural formation." Something like that had to be deliberate.

[Joe Ribaudo]

S.C.,
I know I said it was simple, but only in design. A very small number of white-eyes were familiar with the rock signals of the Apache. That being the case, it is unlikely that the Apache of today even remember the details of construction or meaning. That information would be in Peter's area of expertise. Since only white men of that period wrote any history or description of the Apache life, it is impossible for us to get a really clear picture of the rock signals of the Apache. I will tell you what I know, which is only what I have read. A number of stones would be laid on one side of a trail or road. If the traveler took notice, he would see that they did not come to be there naturally. A closer examination would show that they were arranged in a regular manner and the majority point to some special point of the compass. The number of those who placed the stones will also be designated by the manner of placement of each stone. If the stone or stones are upside down, on there side or in a natural placement, all have meaning. If one stone is place on end so as to rest against another, it means that the party so placing it required aid and assistance. If turned completely over a disaster had occured to the party. Partly turned, a failure. If left in the natural position, heavy side down and in a fairly straight line, success. It was said that Kit Carson was probably the best white man at reading Indian sign, including the rock signals. This information comes from "Life among the Apaches" by John C. Cremony.
Joe

[Roger]

Reply to Wiz's Question:

Yes, I was referencing the mine Chuck locates in his book, "Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman", which shows the mine location on page 55 with the "X" marker above the mine. The Infrared photo on page 54 does appear to show an old trail up the side of the butte to the X marked location. If the mine was really on the ledge below the X as indicated on page 55, there would have to be some mine dump materials below that area that could be investigated with a metal detector to see if any metals were in it.

As a reference, in Barry Storm's Thunder God's Gold book, he recounts on page 42 that Abe Reid had an old Apache named Jim tell him that he had helped to cover several mines in his youth. That there were an upper group of mines and a lower group. He had worked with a team of Indians on a black topped hill due North of Sombero shaped Weavers Needle to help hide 4 mines upon its slopes. The deepest was 14 Mexican ladders deep.

On page 41 of Storm's book, an old Indian told LaBarge that he had been on a mountain worth $90M after he had been hunting across Bluff Springs Mtn, Black Top Mesa, and lesser hills between and around these 3. Again ties to the covered mines on Bluff Springs Mtn.

Could Kenworthy's mine been one of those covered?? And could the mine that Glen Magill uncovered on NE corner of Bluff Spring Mtn have been another of those 4 mines that were covered?

On page 128 of Storm's book Abe Reid describes what an Indian told him about covering mines when he was a youth:

"...He was one of the boys and the best he could tell me was about working on this hill, covering up four mines with half the squaws while the rest hid four more further up the canyon. He knew I'd never find them."

How were they covered?? "With caliche-cemented logs over the holes, then dirt and stones to match the ground. They threw ore and tools back in the shafts. Said a loaded packtrain could be driven over them they were that solid."

When Abe asked the Indian about the other four mines, he said "He never saw them himself, Reid explained. But he said the others told him that they left one open that had just been started high up in some ravine. Another was to the east of the big peak - Weaver's Needle-only the gold there was nuggets in gravel in some tunnels. They laid logs and brush against them. The other two were near a marker to their thunder gods in the canyon"

If there was a clear pointer to the LDM being a mine the Indians knew about but had not covered up, this is it. This would explain how Waltz was able to work the mine long after the Peralta massacre - it had not been covered. It is also interesting how this description of the way the mines were covered up correlates with the description of what Glen Magill's team found as they dug out the old pit mine on Bluff Spring Mtn. Some of the old Mexican mines were played out like the one Magill opened, but the Indians didn't know that and covered all of them.

I believe that this is one reason that so many of the LDM clues are contradictory and point to different areas - there were multiple mines and clues exist to several of them. The Indian clues point mainly to the mines that they had covered up including the one on Peters Mesa. The one we are all interested is the mine "that they left one open that had just been started high up in some ravine".

Food for thought.

Roger

[Wiz]

Wiz,
Is there good water in that area now?

I don't know, Joe. I haven't been up that way since the hot weather set in. Probably, though, what with the rain we've had recently.

[TC ASKEY]

SC

S.C.

Kenworthy also claimed that the Gonzales Map(Profile)map and the
Waltz Map are the same place. He is right!
You can also add the Ortiz Map to that as well. But this place is
nowhere near Chuck Kenworthy's old claims in La Barge Canyon.
Terry






S.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Terry,
Welcome to the Forum.

When you say the Waltz Map, do you mean the drawing of the saddle and Weavers Needle? New stuff pops-up every day that I have never heard of, so I am often in the dark as to what the members are talking about. I have learned more in the last few months as a member, then I did in 40+ years as a Dutch Hunter. You only mention three maps, as showing the same location. Without mentioning the names, are there more?
What's your background in Dutch hunting? It's nice to see someone using their real name.

Wiz,
Thanks for the info.

Joe

[TC ASKEY]

JOE, I'mreferring to the Waltz Drawing,if that's what you prfer to call it,and that's not Weavers Needle in the drawing.these 3 maps are the SAME PLACE.This PLACE is part of 2 other maps. The Minas Del Oro Map and the Peralta-Fish Map. I hope that's straight enough to the point.I'm sure this statement will open a real can of worms with someone. I joined the hunt in the mid 70's and have enjoyed every bit of it. -TERRY

[S.C.]

TC ASKEY,

If they (the "Profile Map" and the Waltz Drawing) are not supposed to be representing Weavers Needle, then what do you think they ARE representing?

You are indeed opening a can of worms...

S.C.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Terry,
It is really good to see someone writing that Weaver's Needle is not the peak in the Waltz drawn saddle. Also nice to have credence given to the Ortiz and Minas Del Oro Maps. It would be interesting to know how the previously mentioned artifacts tie into the Fish map and Miner's Needle. I am, of course, assuming you are still within the boundries of the Superstition Mountains. This is a can of worms we can all sink our teeth into. I think you will hear more on this very interesting topic you have raised.

As for calling the saddle/peak a drawing; I am trying to be careful not to step on anyone's toes concerning names, places or spelling. So, I will be happy to accommodate you, or anyone else, on the correct label to place on this item. You folks know, you only need to voice your preference, and I will quickly adjust my vocabulary to suit.

Joe

[Peter]

Well, I have been away a few days. Back now, happily.

Joe

You are correct about the Apache using rock markers. They also use other
gifts of nature. Their messages can be quite intricate...as you indicated...or quite simple...sometimes just pointing to a trail or canyon, etc...

Whether or not the supposed "Deering" markers in the mountains can be attributed to the Apache...who can say.

Time to catch up on my reading.

[Roger]

Jim Bark wrote that Joe Deering told John Chewning that when he was coming back from the mine he found to his camp in a big canyon, he had built 4 monuments where he came down off "the big mountain". These monuments consisted of long slim stones stood on end with 4 or 5 stones around their base to hold them upright. He also marked a willow tree with a cross that was growing just at the lower edge of the trail. Bark claimed he had found the willow tree and the monuments.

The question is this: Where did Deering erect these monuments? My researsch indicates that they were placed in LaBarge Canyon just to the North of Squaw Canyon.

Anyone have inputs on this?

Roger

[Peter]

Hi Roger

I have spent some time researching this matter. The question is..where did Deering camp? I have narrowed the probable locations down to three:
1) Upper Labarge
2) Tortilla Creek
3) Tortilla Ranch vicinity
From any of those locations the story can be "made" to fit the locale.

Logically this would mean Deerings Trail would follow over one of two mountains....Geronimo Head or Tortilla. Both sport old overgrown trails in places. Of course, one then needs to follow the trail "six or seven"miles to the area where the tunnel might be located. Did Deering mean 6-7? 2-3? 9-10? Who can say.

Have Deerings markers been found? Maybe. I have seen them placed in various areas..Squaw Canyon, Lower Labarge Box, Bluff Spring Mtn, Indian Springs, Malapais Mtn, Tortilla Mtn, Pistol Canyon, Peters Canyon,
Cottonwood Canyon, Music Canyon...name a mountain or canyon and someone has found Deerings markers there.

[LDM]

Deleted.

[Wiz]

Why is it that every time LDM makes a post, I suddenly feel like a blithering ignoramus?

[Peter]

Jeez LDM,

Here I am trying to tip-toe around that subject and you just blow it out of the water. Course I guess the few folks that have had that info havent come up with much over the years...so no need to fret over that "secret" being revealed.

What's next? Maybe someone will post Brownies "secret" directions to the mine. That would be interesting. Course if one dug enough, one could make a pretty good educated guess as to what those are....lol

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wiz,
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger. LDM makes us all feel like a "blithering ignoramus". When I grow up, I want to be LDM.
Who is that masked man?
Joe

Labarge?

[Peter]

Joe

What make you think LDM is a man at all? Perhaps he's a reincarnated
mountain spirit who visits us mere mortals to set us to rights.

His name is Dzil Nant'an cho .... Great Lord of the Mountain (literal translation is mountain-chief-big for those linguists amongst you).

Makes me look like I havent graduated from Dutching Hunting nursery school.... (well, maybe kintergarten...lol)